maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Developers gentlemen, thank you for listening to the users who actually use Gimp to work. Listen to their needs. Practice, there is all that counts and not the theoretical ideas completely divorced from reality.

We got a lot of negative feedback, unfortunately most of it was incoherent write-only-rambling, which makes it hard to listen to. If you're masochistic, go to the gimp-devel archives and read the threads on that topic.

We also got a lot of positive feedback on the change. It seems we're not really "completely divorced from reality" with the change.

For now we're sticking to the new behaviour. Sorry if you don't like that.

Bye,
Simon

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Because you're not dealing with reality. This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation.

See? This is what I was referring to.

Bye, Simon

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:27 PM, maderios wrote:

On 09/10/2012 06:19 PM, Simon Budig wrote:

We got a lot of negative feedback, unfortunately most of it was incoherent write-only-rambling, which makes it hard to listen to. If you're masochistic, go to the gimp-devel archives and read the threads on that topic.

We also got a lot of positive feedback on the change. It seems we're not really "completely divorced from reality" with the change.

For now we're sticking to the new behaviour. Sorry if you don't like that.

Because you're not dealing with reality.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/116634837115748851709/posts/cxRFFUeYmpv

Just another example of the reality we are not dealing with. You need to read beyond first two comments to understand the sarcasm.

I could list more positive replies. In fact, I probably will.

This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation. I know it's hard to admit, but it is a fact...

http://mmiworks.net/aboutus/

Yes, I do genuinely believe you are going to have a hard time to admit things ;-)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Just because the English doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean the viewpoint is invalid. And maybe your refusal to see the thought in the message is the root of the discord.

On 9/10/2012 9:32 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Because you're not dealing with reality. This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation.

See? This is what I was referring to.

Bye, Simon

Ken Warner (kwarner000@verizon.net) wrote:

On 9/10/2012 9:32 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Because you're not dealing with reality. This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation.

See? This is what I was referring to.

Just because the English doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean the viewpoint is invalid. And maybe your refusal to see the thought in the message is the root of the discord.

Sorry for being too terse. But I was not referring to the language (although I don't understand the "vocation" word there). I was referring to the insinuation that we - as the developers - are just amateurs not dealing with reality and hence do things the wrong way.

Yes, I do take offense in that.

Bye, Simon

You know, like Forest Gump says [paraphrased] Amateur is as amateur does.

And your insistence that your design decisions are right even while the user community tells you otherwise is strictly amateur.

On 9/10/2012 9:57 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

Ken Warner (kwarner000@verizon.net) wrote:

On 9/10/2012 9:32 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Because you're not dealing with reality. This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation.

See? This is what I was referring to.

Just because the English doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean the viewpoint is invalid. And maybe your refusal to see the thought in the message is the root of the discord.

Sorry for being too terse. But I was not referring to the language (although I don't understand the "vocation" word there). I was referring to the insinuation that we - as the developers - are just amateurs not dealing with reality and hence do things the wrong way.

Yes, I do take offense in that.

Bye, Simon

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:03:35 -0700, Ken Warner wrote:

You know,

like Forest Gump says [paraphrased] Amateur is as amateur does.

And

your insistence that your design decisions are right even while the user community tells you otherwise is strictly amateur.

I wonder, who gave you credentials to speak "in the name of the community"?

Ken Warner (kwarner000@verizon.net) wrote:

And your insistence that your design decisions are right even while the user community tells you otherwise is strictly amateur.

See, here you're disregarding my assertion that we got a lot of positive feedback, Alexandre even pointed to a small part of it for e.g. you to read up on it.

The picture just is not as clear-cut as you seem to believe.

We had a workflow in Gimp that actually caused people to lose their work. We fixed it. There is no way we're going to reintroduce it, just due to some people reacting negatively to the change, while simultaneously questioning our common sense.

Bye, Simon

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:57 PM, Simon Budig wrote:

(although I don't understand the "vocation" word there).

Anruf?

I was referring
to the insinuation that we - as the developers - are just amateurs not dealing with reality and hence do things the wrong way.

Yes, I do take offense in that.

There is no need to take offense. In my experience, people who feel betrayed cannot be reasoned.

See, it doesn't matter that we interviewed and keep interviewing professionals.

It doesn't matter that we heard professionals liking that change or even failing to understand how anyone could possibly not like it.

We just did something some people don't like. Therefore for them the rest doesn't matter and probably doesn't even exist. Hence all the talks about reaility.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Ken Warner wrote:

You know, like Forest Gump says [paraphrased] Amateur is as amateur does.

And your insistence that your design decisions are right even while the user community tells you otherwise is strictly amateur.

And your insistence that any individual's personal opinions reflect what the "community" feels is also amateur.

From the feedback I have read both here, in reviews and on a number of forums, it appears that the community is divided on this issue, with a range of opinion that varies from "The new behavior sucks, gimp devs are all idiots, and I'll never us gimp again." to "Thanks - this makes sense, supports my work-flows, and was a good direction to have taken."

The vocal minority is the one that is voicing displeasure at the change (which is typical human nature) , imoo.

-Rob A>

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Bruno wrote:

I wonder, who gave you credentials to speak "in the name of the community"?

Bruno,

We are dealing with the "it stands to reason" kind of logic. It isn't possible to argue against it. You can laugh at it, or you can ignore it. That's pretty much all you can really do.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:15:08 +0400, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 9:08 PM, Bruno wrote:

I wonder, who gave

you credentials to speak "in the name of the community"?

Bruno,

We are dealing with the "it stands to reason" kind of logic. It

isn't

possible to argue against it. You can laugh at it, or you can

ignore

it. That's pretty much all you can really do.

Agreed,
Alexandre. Just that trying to pass one's own judgement as a community's
judgement is a really ugly thing, that needs to be denounced.

I too have ranted about this topic. Not to get into it again, I would like to point out a couple of things:

1. This change doesn't remove functionality. It only moves it. 2. This is not a show-stopper in any sense of the word.

and sorta 3. Someone has created some sort of script which restores the original behavior. I have not tried it and I probably won't. It takes some getting used to and, yes, it is a type of behavior which is not like many other programs so a greater unified behavior has been compromised. But the script, if it's a huge problem for you, might be your best solution.

Not to hijack the thread (because I know I'm not going to help make any change) but if there was any REAL complaint which is a show-stopper for many, it would be that GiMP relies on GTK. And since my OS of choice (CentOS/RHEL) does not use a new enough version of GTK, I cannot run the latest GiMP without some serious compromises and a lot of work. (The REAL fault is that GNOME decided to go with an application library for its desktop environment)

The point is, there is a huge difference between an annoyance which can be worked around and a real-live show-stopper. The GNOME-GTK-GIMP connection creates a horrible show stopper for people who don't want to use GNOME 3.x... and can't run Mate (yet).

On 09/10/2012 12:45 PM, maderios wrote:

On 09/10/2012 06:32 PM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

Because you're not dealing with reality. This is the problem of amateurs who create software professional vocation.

See? This is what I was referring to.

Historically, tools and software are improved by professionals, amateurs benefit. Doing the opposite is a mistake. Look at what happens in the image world industry.

Regards

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

We just did something some people don't like. Therefore for them the rest doesn't matter and probably doesn't even exist. Hence all the talks about reaility.

'Probably doesn't even exist' is probably the quote of the year on this topic.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:52 AM, maderios wrote:

1. This change doesn't remove functionality. It only moves it.

The problem is that gimp arbitrarily separates the types of files

Not arbitrarily, but on purpose and by design.

May I ask why you keep making incorrect statements for which you apologize later anyway?

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM, maderios wrote:

Reread what I wrote above. Do not distort what I meant. Thanks...

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word "arbitrary"?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary

The distinction isn't arbitrary. It's a design decision.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 09/11/2012 03:56 AM, maderios wrote:

It's the case... Developers know their job developers. They do not listen to what happens on the side of people who work with images.

The GIMP development team is not a bunch of people hired from an employment agency. Most of them have already forgotten more about image editing, in the sense of production work, than I will ever know - I am certain of that, because they have to deal with atypical "edge cases" that I never see.

They understand my workflow as a designer and all around graphics production geek better than you do - as demonstrated in the case at hand, where they decided to build part of my normal workflow into the program's user interface as its default behavior.

My word processor responds to "control-s" by saving the open document in its own native format, which does not happen to be suitable for distribution to end users. My audio editor does the same thing. My video editors do the same thing. My vector editor does the same thing. The difference between "saving" work in progress while using a specific tool, and "exporting" data files for distribution to the great unwashed public, is not something that was arbitrarily made up by GIMP developers. It is a basic fact o' life for those who work with digital media of any kind.

Yeah I know, responding to this subject is a clear cut case of feeding teh trollz - but see earlier posts for adequate excuses, and at least I am in good company.

:o)

Steve

On 09/11/2012 04:25 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

My word processor responds to "control-s" by saving the open document in its own native format, which does not happen to be suitable for distribution to end users. My audio editor does the same thing. My video editors do the same thing. My vector editor does the same thing. The difference between "saving" work in progress while using a specific tool, and "exporting" data files for distribution to the great unwashed public, is not something that was arbitrarily made up by GIMP developers. It is a basic fact o' life for those who work with digital media of any kind. Yeah I know, responding to this subject is a clear cut case of feeding teh trollz - but see earlier posts for adequate excuses, and at least I am in good company. :o) Steve

Which word processor might that be? The MS Office versions I have used do not behave this way. LibreOffice most certainly does not behave this way. If you open a file in .DOCX format, ctrl-S will save in that format. Inkscape does not do this. My wife's Photoshop and Illustrator do not do this. (If the latest version of Adobe software does this, I wouldn't know. We don't have the latest.)

I'm no troll. I see both sides of the issue. But don't put out stuff that isn't true. So please, which word processor(s) are you talking about? Which vector editor are you talking about?

As for video editors? Video editors, by their very nature must export output but only saves a project file. They do not (or should not) include the source video files in them as the file sizes would be prohibitive.

Audio editors? I wouldn't know. My last experience with an audio editor was decades ago, but Goldwave back in the day could save as any format it supported.

GiMP gave users a choice of Windowing style. That was wonderful. They didn't pick a side on the issue at all. Some like a single window. Others like multiple. They said "here! now it's a mode switch! do it the way you like it!" Why didn't they do it like that with save/export?

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:56 AM, maderios wrote:

arbitrary = "depending on individual discretion"

It's the case... Developers know their job developers. They do not listen to what happens on the side of people who work with images.

The problem is not about us allegedly not listening. The problem is that _you_ don't find it necessary to sit down and listen to _us_ for just one minute.

The decision was made in 2009 after discussions in our mailing lists and on IRC. It's based on analysis of what the target audience needs. You do not have to agree with the result, but repeatedly suggesting that no users were consulted is plain wrong. I would appreciate if you stopped doing that.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

maderios schreef op di 11-09-2012 om 08:52 [+0200]:

1. This change doesn't remove functionality. It only moves it.

The problem is that gimp arbitrarily separates the types of files: .xcf and others. This does not happen like this in the work. We work indifferently on all file types.

Maybe _you_ do, but I (and at least some other users) make a clear distinction between XCF, which stores the image and my manipulations on it (layers, masks, selections), making it possible to change some operations afterwards (if for example some details are lost in a certain printing process or if I just change my mind about how the image has to look in a series or ...) and standard image formats (which only store the results of these operations).

This behaviour is exactly the same as your wordprocessor refusing to save to PDF. PDF (like standard image types) is absolutely perfect for distribution, but I suppose you too don't save longer texts to PDF while working on them? I agree that for some small documents that I just want to archive, I remove the original word processor file afterwards, and I do that for some XCF files too.

It's a little overhead for small changes to an image, but a real improvement for the images you are really working on. I know that in previous versions it was possible to use the "Save a copy" function (which I used), but the new behaviour makes it impossible to make a mistake while saving (making you lose all operations without warning you). So from now on, I can concentrate on the image, without worrying about saving "the right way".

If you are really really annoyed by this behaviour, use 2.6, start a fork, ask/pay someone to start a fork for you, use another image editor, ..., but please stop spamming this otherwise very useful mailing list. Everybody knows you and some other users don't like it, everybody knows some users (including me) do like it and the developers clearly explained the research and the reasons for this decision.

Best regards,

Maarten

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Maarten De Munck wrote:

If you are really really annoyed by this behaviour, use 2.6, start a fork, ask/pay someone to start a fork for you, use another image editor, ...,

No need to. There already is a fork.

https://github.com/mskala/noxcf-gimp

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 09/11/2012 05:05 AM, Daniel Hauck wrote:

On 09/11/2012 04:25 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

My word processor responds to "control-s" by saving the open document in its own native format, which does not happen to be suitable for distribution to end users. [etc]

Which word processor might that be?

Open Office saves to ODT. If you keep editing and re-saving documents in an "undocumented" format with Libre Office, eventually you will encounter a very annoying problem due to progressive corruption of the internal markup code.

Inkscape does not do this.

Inkscape saves in SVG format. Lots of luck getting that to display in software that expects raster image files.

I'm no troll. I see both sides of the issue. But don't put out stuff that isn't true. So please, which word processor(s) are you talking about? Which vector editor are you talking about?

No comment, other than "own petard, etc."

/trollfeeding

:o)

That's good news! I wish that effort all success.

On 9/11/2012 2:49 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Maarten De Munck wrote:

If you are really really annoyed by this behaviour, use 2.6, start a fork, ask/pay someone to start a fork for you, use another image editor, ...,

No need to. There already is a fork.

https://github.com/mskala/noxcf-gimp

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Steve Kinney wrote:

Inkscape does not do this.

Inkscape saves in SVG format. Lots of luck getting that to display in software that expects raster image files.

Moreover, the plan is to stop saving to file formats other than SVG.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

* maderios [09-11-12 06:15]:
...

It's really very simple:

Photoshop / Saving images Save a file
Use the Save command to save changes to the current file or the Save As command to save changes to a different file. http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7783a.html

Set file saving preferences http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7783a.html#WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7720a

You are absolutely correct. It is even more simple than you espouse: *You* are free to use fotoshot and pay the piper. And you will never notice another problem with gimp, and we will not have to continually delete your posts.

On 09/11/2012 08:38 AM, maderios wrote:

Hi
I'm not developper but I think it is certainly possible to give the choice in the configuration.

Yes, but it's a bad idea. Having all the people using more or less the same Gimp is beneficial. The same tutorials work everywhere, and the people answering questions in forums don't have to makes guesses about what customizations your Gimp has been subjected to (the current situation with users split between 2.6 and 2.8 already makes many answers a lot more verbose than necessary). And developers tend to make changes around the standard version, so your personal config can eventually conflict with a future version.

The obvious design that satisfies both groups has been offered several times and has been derided as --- I don't know why, although numerous attempts to justify the current design has been proffered.

On 9/11/2012 4:52 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 09/11/2012 08:38 AM, maderios wrote:

Hi
I'm not developper but I think it is certainly possible to give the choice in the configuration.

Yes, but it's a bad idea. Having all the people using more or less the same Gimp is beneficial. The same tutorials work everywhere, and the people answering questions in forums don't have to makes guesses about what customizations your Gimp has been subjected to (the current situation with users split between 2.6 and 2.8 already makes many answers a lot more verbose than necessary). And developers tend to make changes around the standard version, so your personal config can eventually conflict with a future version.

_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:50:54 -0700 From: kwarner000@verizon.net
To: ofnuts@laposte.net
CC: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] About bad new save export function in Gimp-2.8

The obvious design that satisfies both groups has been offered several times and has been derided as --- I don't know why, although numerous attempts to justify the current design has been proffered.

You mean the "make it a user preference" one? To me, the simplest compromise is to simply tweak the existing dialog message from an "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" message to an OK/Cancel prompt, to which the only dev response was to label it "fudging". Yes, it sort of is, but that's what compromise is about, right?

But perhaps a better thing to remember is that when the devs refer to "safe" and "unsafe" workflows, I think these are meant to be terms with precise technical meanings and NOT a value judgement on whether the person is using GIMP "correctly".

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

May be but you have already the choice with "window-single mode" or not. Then you open edit -> preferences and here, incredible thing, you can discover about thousand settings ! I joke, you know that.

True, we know that we have way too many configuration settings.

Unfortunately adding to these doesn't help with this problem.

Bye, Simon

On Tuesday 11 September 2012 07:23:34 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* maderios [09-11-12 06:15]:
...

It's really very simple:

Photoshop / Saving images Save a file
Use the Save command to save changes to the current file or the Save As command to save changes to a different file. http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e4100 1031ab64-7783a.html

Set file saving preferences http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e4100 1031ab64-7783a.html#WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-7720a

You are absolutely correct. It is even more simple than you espouse: *You* are free to use fotoshot and pay the piper. And you will never notice another problem with gimp, and we will not have to continually delete your posts.

--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net

ditto.

maderios, please, please just accept that it will not happen. This has been discussed at great length, and it will not change.

On 12/09/2012 10:55, maderios wrote:

On 09/12/2012 10:16 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

May be but you have already the choice with "window-single mode" or not. Then you open edit -> preferences and here, incredible thing, you can discover about thousand settings ! I joke, you know that.

True, we know that we have way too many configuration settings.

Unfortunately adding to these doesn't help with this problem.

I don't understand. What's the problem ? You can keep a default conf or change a few things, or change many things... We have to stay free. A good softw model is VLC :
tools -> preferences -> show settings -> simple tools -> preferences -> show settings -> all

Greetings

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

True, we know that we have way too many configuration settings.

Unfortunately adding to these doesn't help with this problem.

I don't understand. What's the problem ? You can keep a default conf or change a few things, or change many things...

This is a two-fold problem: On one hand more options makes it harder for the user to get a deterministic behaviour (since behaviour depends on more-or-less-obscure options). On the other hand more options increase code complexity. They make code harder to understand and to maintain.

And yes, we fought single-window-mode for a long time. In the end we followed our interaction architect: He deemed it important and created a spec for it and he wanted it to be configurable.

(Note that SWM also is not a hidden option in the preferences, it has its own menu entry, it is exposed quite prominently).

Bye, Simon

On Sep 12, 2012 5:56 PM, "maderios" wrote:

On 09/12/2012 10:16 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

maderios (maderios@gmail.com) wrote:

May be but you have already the choice with "window-single mode" or not. Then you open edit -> preferences and here, incredible thing, you can discover about thousand settings ! I joke, you know that.

True, we know that we have way too many configuration settings.

Unfortunately adding to these doesn't help with this problem.

I don't understand. What's the problem ? You can keep a default conf or

change a few things, or change many things... We have to stay free.

A good softw model is VLC :
tools -> preferences -> show settings -> simple tools -> preferences -> show settings -> all

Greetings

-- Maderios

Why use "we" when you're not the one who does any of the work. Fork gimp, or pay someone a salary to, then you can use "we" in this context, otherwise you're just a troll. Last I checked gimp is open source, you have full access to the code, but that doesn't mean the devs work to your instruction.