Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
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Gimp interface streamlining
Hi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still
needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone -
and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface
is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it look
more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary
redundancy and improve the workflow:
Gimp interface improvements: ============================
1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options:
new toolbox icon | includes function
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform | - Move layers & selections
| - Crop or Resize
| - Rotate Layer or selection
| - Scale layer or selection
| - Shear layer or selection
| - Change perspective
| - Flip layer or selection
| - Corner pin (*)
|
Select | - Rectangular selection
| - Elliptical selection
| - Select shapes from image
| - Select hand-drawn
| - Select contiguous regions
| - Select regions by color
|
Fill | - Fill with a color or pattern
| - Fill with a color gradient
(*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace most
other transform tools.
'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses the
current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and skews,
rotates and scales the layer according to those corners.
4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools;
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color);
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
7.) Assign hotkeys for the most used modes of the paint tools (e.g.: = Paint, = Erase, = Behind...);
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools
10.) Add an 'Erase' - mode to the layer modes. If you use this mode, the layer becomes invisible and 'erases' (hides) only the layer behind according to the alpha channel of the 'Erase' layer. The 'Erase' layer should still be editable until you merge it down;
11.) Add an 'Undo' - mode to the paint tools, to allow the user to blend to the previous step using regular tools, e.g. you apply a filter like 'Solarize' and remove the effect from some parts of the image using the airbrush. Should also allow to undo paint ops, because it's not very confident to undo the whole last line if you traced a large image and there is one minor glitch for example. The undo state for paint ops should be set whenever the user changes the tool, tool setting or color. This mode doesn't have to be accessible using the 'Mode' dropdown in the tool settings, but it has to be available holding down a hotkey like spacebar or tab, and should revert to the previous mode on release;
12.) Add an image view mode, e.g. at the bottom of the image window, to switch between 'Show RGB', 'Show red channel', 'Show green channel', 'Show blue channel', 'Show alpha channel';
13.) Remove the pressure mapping options from the tool settings and add it to the 'Tool state' window, to remove unnecessary options for users without a tablet;
14.) Add a pressure curve to the tool settings, to edit the pressure and suppress values on the fly;
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned:
___________________ __________
| FG | | BG |
------------------- ----------
____________________________________
| Gradient |
------------------------------------
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described
suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.png
Suggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
Gimp interface streamlining
Hi there,
Well, A lot of things for a first post.
Allow me to go for a first triage of your suggestions, so that the men-in-the-power-to-do-it can focus their attention.
First, allow e to present myself: I've joinned here about two to three months ago, and so far an better in talking and suggesting than contributing with the code or docs.
But I could grasp, I think, a feeling of where the gimp is going,a nd what people making it are after.
Now, onto your suggestions:
On Monday 01 September 2003 3:09 pm, Willie Sippel wrote:
Hi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Only reading througgh the end will tell Iif I managed to go easy.
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
Funny...more oftenly people will come in and complain that it is _not_ like photoshop. I however think that the GIMP is far less clumsy than Photoshop/corel photopaint/Paint Shop Pro/Windows Paint and friends,and OTOH no were near what Deluxe Paint has been in it's time for free hand drawing.
So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it look more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary redundancy and improve the workflow:
Let's check your ideias.
One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP
series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series.
Gimp interface improvements:
============================1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
Bad news in the "remove buttons" part. In the 1.3 series, actually, more things have been added there, and his will not change.
If you manage to make you point quite well, be aware that I simpathise with the idea..and possibly...just possibly...gimp 2.2, or 3.0 can have a completely customizable tool box.
2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options:
ok. Deluxe Paint would make this subselection by displaying a submenu if the button on the main tooll palette would remain pressed for a while. IMHO,, that would be better than a selection on the tool options..
(...)
(*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace most other transform tools.
'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses the current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and skews, rotates and scales the layer according to those corners.
IMO, the perspective transformation does just that. Check t see if it equivalent, and if it is not, just explain what is missing or behaving differently.
4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools;
Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the Background color, instead of foreground. In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor.
As for the eraser tool, it is currently the only of the paint tools that paints to transparency without the need to paint on the mask. Besides, the behavior of the "ctrl" key in it comes close, if one is paiting on the background, of the color swapping feature.
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color);
Well..since the color picker button is not going away any time soon anyway, ant given that a single click on the FG or BG clors on the main Tool Box are already conveniently assigned, I don see ths changing. And IMHO, this would make the application more difficult to use. If you need fast access to the color picker, you can assign a key stroke to it. In the 1.3 series holding CTRL in most (most? Paint Brush, Pencil and Draw in Ink) paint tools will bring you a temporary color picker, and that is dinamic enough for me.
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
The color picker actually does alpha...in the color pickler only mode, it does show the alpha of the clicked pixel. However this is an interesting feature request that can make it even in 1.3.20 : The dinamic color pciker, borught with Control should set the tool Opacity according to the Alpha value on the clicked pixel. Any objections?
7.) Assign hotkeys for the most used modes of the paint tools (e.g.: = Paint, = Erase, = Behind...);
:-)
Youa re late on this. It´s possible for one to dinamically assing hot
keys to anything on the GIMP menus. Just go for it...hover the cursor
over your menu option, and press the hotkey you wnat there.
This, IMO is what make the GIMP more dinamically than Photshop and
clones band, as I mentioned above.
This feature has to be enabled on 1.3 series, but is enabled by default on 1.2
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
I feel just alrught with them. I like to know what color am I painting on,and a smaller preview of the color may not be enough to know how it will look like. Here even Paint Hsop Pro is beaten,as most other prograsn do actually display an enormous collor pallette, when all one need is the current color, since all others ar avaliable a click away.
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools
Ok..they just won't change now - for 2.0, and are not yet customizable.
10.) Add an 'Erase' - mode to the layer modes. If you use this mode, the layer becomes invisible and 'erases' (hides) only the layer behind according to the alpha channel of the 'Erase' layer. The 'Erase' layer should still be editable until you merge it down;
Hah..that's my card on the sleeve... I am working on a "custom layer mode" were opne can add/create the most insabne layer modes without adding more layer modes to the 20 and so already there. I am targetting this on gimp 2.2, as I am not getting enough time to program it right now.
However, this particular feature you are asking for is already avaliable, and is far more versatile that any layer mode. It is called "layer mask", and you can add one by right clicking on your layer on the layers tab, and edit it by vtrl+click and alt+click on the mask thumbnail that will show up on the layers tab. When you choose "apply layer mask", it is committed to the alpha channel of the layer.
11.) Add an 'Undo' - mode to the paint tools, to allow the user to blend to the previous step using regular tools, e.g. you apply a filter like 'Solarize' and remove the effect from some parts of the image using the airbrush. Should also allow to undo paint ops, because it's not very confident to undo the whole last line if you traced a large image and there is one minor glitch for example. The undo state for paint ops should be set whenever the user changes the tool, tool setting or color. This mode doesn't have to be accessible using the 'Mode' dropdown in the tool settings, but it has to be available holding down a hotkey like spacebar or tab, and should revert to the previous mode on release;
Sorry for that - sounds unfeasible, and would break the undo interface. Anyone looking for this kind of stuff should duplicate the layer, apply the effect,a nd erase the parts of the layer affected that he wants "undone".
12.) Add an image view mode, e.g. at the bottom of the image window, to switch between 'Show RGB', 'Show red channel', 'Show green channel', 'Show blue channel', 'Show alpha channel';
This is accessible through the "channels" tab (in the layers/channels/paths dialog on GIMP 1.2). On the 1.3 series, if one is using this oftenly, the channels can have their own dialog box so taht they are always visible and togleable.
13.) Remove the pressure mapping options from the tool settings and add it to the 'Tool state' window, to remove unnecessary options for users without a tablet;
Better would be to think of a way of USING the pressure settings for those who do not have a tablet. Maybe the experience could be made with the mouse wheel, for instance, or a gauge dinamically controled by pressing left and right arrows while painting. I do not think that any of the tool settings is clutterd, even in 1.3 where most of them get a vertical scroll bar.
14.) Add a pressure curve to the tool settings, to edit the pressure and suppress values on the fly;
Maybe you could elaborate on that. What exactly would t be? A visible calibration curve for the pressure?
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
there are options on the GIMP that use these settings, ina way unrealated to the tools states, Edit->Stroke selection, for example.
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned: (...)
Why?
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.pngSuggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
Ok, these are mine. Sorry if you think I've been too harsh. See that I even agree that the main toolbox could be trimmed away instead of enlarged- which appears to be your main suggestion. I just know it will not happen now, and that it won't be the default in the next versions. But just reading this I became aware that middle clicking, right clicking and dragging buttons on the main tool box currently do nothing,
I hope you will enjoy learning that some of the features you requested are already there - the layer masks for instance.
And I will right now open an enhancement request to the color picker to pick alpha on bugzilla.
Regards,
JS ->
Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:49, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:
Hi there,
Well, A lot of things for a first post.
Allow me to go for a first triage of your suggestions, so that the men-in-the-power-to-do-it can focus their attention.
First, allow e to present myself: I've joinned here about two to three months ago, and so far an better in talking and suggesting than contributing with the code or docs.
But I could grasp, I think, a feeling of where the gimp is going,a nd what people making it are after.
Now, onto your suggestions:
On Monday 01 September 2003 3:09 pm, Willie Sippel wrote:
Hi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Only reading througgh the end will tell Iif I managed to go easy.
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
Funny...more oftenly people will come in and complain that it is _not_ like photoshop. I however think that the GIMP is far less clumsy than Photoshop/corel photopaint/Paint Shop Pro/Windows Paint and friends,and OTOH no were near what Deluxe Paint has been in it's time for free hand drawing.
Might be more or less true, but this depends on what programs you compare Gimp to. I mostly used more professional applications like Aura, Quantel Paintbox and 5D Cyborg, and these applications are really workflow - optimised. If you compare Gimp to these tools, Gimp behaves much more like Photoshop... ;-)
So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it look more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary redundancy and improve the workflow:
Let's check your ideias.
One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series.
Nope, 1.3.19.
Gimp interface improvements:
============================1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
Bad news in the "remove buttons" part. In the 1.3 series, actually, more things have been added there, and his will not change.
If you manage to make you point quite well, be aware that I simpathise with the idea..and possibly...just possibly...gimp 2.2, or 3.0 can have a completely customizable tool box.
Well, Dodge and Burn are already pretty redundant and therefore useless clutter, since these tools are also modes for the paint tools. They are much more flexible and usable as modes, 'cause you can airbrush the Burn - effect - it would be even more flexible and intuitive to do the same for Blur, Sharpen and Smudge, and remove the corresponding toolbox buttons.
2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options:
ok. Deluxe Paint would make this subselection by displaying a submenu if the button on the main tooll palette would remain pressed for a while. IMHO,, that would be better than a selection on the tool options..
It could be event better to split the toolbox in two segments, the upper segment contains the groups, the lower segment the corresponding tools. BTW, also I like DPaint, it should be our goal to improve, not mimic some other program...
(...)
(*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace most other transform tools.
'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses the current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and skews, rotates and scales the layer according to those corners.IMO, the perspective transformation does just that. Check t see if it equivalent, and if it is not, just explain what is missing or behaving differently.
You're right, sorry - must have missed this one. As I say, to much buttons... ;-) Would a realtime preview be doable - with a lower proxy, if necessary?
4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools;
Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the Background color, instead of foreground. In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor.
That's not what I meant, I meant the eraser, not the bg color. But you are right on the keystroke, this would be a great addition.
As for the eraser tool, it is currently the only of the paint tools that paints to transparency without the need to paint on the mask. Besides, the behavior of the "ctrl" key in it comes close, if one is paiting on the background, of the color swapping feature.
And this is exactly the problem, only the eraser tool paints to transparency. And it should be possible to use ANY paint tool to do this. It could be as simple as reversing the alpha value for this tool... Alpha/ erase != bg color (at least if you use more than one layer).
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color);
Well..since the color picker button is not going away any time soon anyway, ant given that a single click on the FG or BG clors on the main Tool Box are already conveniently assigned, I don see ths changing. And IMHO, this would make the application more difficult to use. If you need fast access to the color picker, you can assign a key stroke to it. In the 1.3 series holding CTRL in most (most? Paint Brush, Pencil and Draw in Ink) paint tools will bring you a temporary color picker, and that is dinamic enough for me.
Maybe. But what hotkey gives me the bg color picker? I don't think the current assignment is very convenient - what about using left click to get a color picker, and right click to bring up the color chooser?
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
The color picker actually does alpha...in the color pickler only mode, it does show the alpha of the clicked pixel. However this is an interesting feature request that can make it even in 1.3.20 : The dinamic color pciker, borught with Control should set the tool Opacity according to the Alpha value on the clicked pixel. Any objections?
It would be sufficient to add an alpha slider to the color sliders, as most professionals only use the sliders, anyway. And picking alpha only using the color picker is not sufficient...
7.) Assign hotkeys for the most used modes of the paint tools (e.g.: = Paint, = Erase, = Behind...);
:-)
Youa re late on this. It´s possible for one to dinamically assing hot keys to anything on the GIMP menus. Just go for it...hover the cursor over your menu option, and press the hotkey you wnat there. This, IMO is what make the GIMP more dinamically than Photshop and clones band, as I mentioned above.This feature has to be enabled on 1.3 series, but is enabled by default on 1.2
Nice, but since all usable hotkeys are already assigned to strange and rarely used functions, this not really convenient.
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
I feel just alrught with them. I like to know what color am I painting on,and a smaller preview of the color may not be enough to know how it will look like. Here even Paint Hsop Pro is beaten,as most other prograsn do actually display an enormous collor pallette, when all one need is the current color, since all others ar avaliable a click away.
That's why I suggested to make the preview on the toolbox bigger and not overlapping...
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools
Ok..they just won't change now - for 2.0, and are not yet customizable.
Is this one so difficult - it's not really convenient to have 29(!) more or less randomly positioned buttons on the toolbox. Even if you're used to the interface, you have to be very careful not to click the wrong button.
10.) Add an 'Erase' - mode to the layer modes. If you use this mode, the layer becomes invisible and 'erases' (hides) only the layer behind according to the alpha channel of the 'Erase' layer. The 'Erase' layer should still be editable until you merge it down;
Hah..that's my card on the sleeve... I am working on a "custom layer mode" were opne can add/create the most insabne layer modes without adding more layer modes to the 20 and so already there. I am targetting this on gimp 2.2, as I am not getting enough time to program it right now.
However, this particular feature you are asking for is already avaliable, and is far more versatile that any layer mode. It is called "layer mask", and you can add one by right clicking on your layer on the layers tab, and edit it by vtrl+click and alt+click on the mask thumbnail that will show up on the layers tab. When you choose "apply layer mask", it is committed to the alpha channel of the layer.
Yes, it may be there, but it's overly complicated, and not as intuitive as simply selecting the layer and click 'Mode > Erase'.
11.) Add an 'Undo' - mode to the paint tools, to allow the user to blend to the previous step using regular tools, e.g. you apply a filter like 'Solarize' and remove the effect from some parts of the image using the airbrush. Should also allow to undo paint ops, because it's not very confident to undo the whole last line if you traced a large image and there is one minor glitch for example. The undo state for paint ops should be set whenever the user changes the tool, tool setting or color. This mode doesn't have to be accessible using the 'Mode' dropdown in the tool settings, but it has to be available holding down a hotkey like spacebar or tab, and should revert to the previous mode on release;
Sorry for that - sounds unfeasible, and would break the undo interface. Anyone looking for this kind of stuff should duplicate the layer, apply the effect,a nd erase the parts of the layer affected that he wants "undone".
That's way to slow and unintuitive. BTW, the current 'Erase' tool already has this feature (CTRL+click - unerase) - would be logical and more ergonomic to have this feature available for ALL paint tools. BTW, this unerase seems to have a bug, since it removes the transparency of the current layer?!
12.) Add an image view mode, e.g. at the bottom of the image window, to switch between 'Show RGB', 'Show red channel', 'Show green channel', 'Show blue channel', 'Show alpha channel';
This is accessible through the "channels" tab (in the layers/channels/paths dialog on GIMP 1.2). On the 1.3 series, if one is using this oftenly, the channels can have their own dialog box so taht they are always visible and togleable.
I know that this is possible, but the channels window consumes way to much space for only accessing such a simple function.
13.) Remove the pressure mapping options from the tool settings and add it to the 'Tool state' window, to remove unnecessary options for users without a tablet;
Better would be to think of a way of USING the pressure settings for those who do not have a tablet. Maybe the experience could be made with the mouse wheel, for instance, or a gauge dinamically controled by pressing left and right arrows while painting. I do not think that any of the tool settings is clutterd, even in 1.3 where most of them get a vertical scroll bar.
Even then it would be better to add these options to the 'Device Status' dialog, because they are unnecessary for quite a few uses, like web or interface design.
14.) Add a pressure curve to the tool settings, to edit the pressure and suppress values on the fly;
Maybe you could elaborate on that. What exactly would t be? A visible calibration curve for the pressure?
Yes, that's what I meant.
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
there are options on the GIMP that use these settings, ina way unrealated to the tools states, Edit->Stroke selection, for example.
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned: (...)
Why?
To make it big enough to remove the giant, space wasting preview from the color dialog.
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.pngSuggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
Ok, these are mine. Sorry if you think I've been too harsh. See that I even agree that the main toolbox could be trimmed away instead of enlarged- which appears to be your main suggestion. I just know it will not happen now, and that it won't be the default in the next versions. But just reading this I became aware that middle clicking, right clicking and dragging buttons on the main tool box currently do nothing,
I hope you will enjoy learning that some of the features you requested are already there - the layer masks for instance.
They are not, like stated above. I know that any result can be reached in different ways, but the current Gimp - ways are simply to long and complicated.
And I will right now open an enhancement request to the color picker to pick alpha on bugzilla.
Regards,
JS ->
Ciao,
Gimp interface streamlining
On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote:
Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200
From: Willie Sippel
To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamliningHi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone -
I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ...
and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either.
1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764
but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add them back will likely displease many different people depending on which features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button.
It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and
Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get
more of the related items.
Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu
http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/AdobePhotoshop-clicknhold.png
shorter link to Photoshop screenshot
http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color);
This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it.
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should be used.
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional option to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code).
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools
care to explain your reasoning for this reordering?
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
There is already a preference to remove it.
Toolbox, File, Preferences...
Interface,
[] Display Brush, Pattern and Gradient Indicators.
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned:
some paint programs have differnt designs, some even allow you to choose which design you like best but I dont understand what is wrong with the current design, please explain why your suggestion is better.
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.pngSuggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
It is great that you took the time to thnk about how to improve the GIMP but keep in mind that you suggested a whole lot of changes that could take a long time to get done iff there is a developer interested in making the changes you suggest.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
Gimp interface streamlining
I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao.
I did another design, available at
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 18:17, Alan Horkan wrote:
On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote:
Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200
From: Willie Sippel
To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamliningHi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone -
I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ...
and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either.
1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764
I don't want a customizable toolbar, but some of these tools are already modes for paint tools, and the other mentioned tools should be the same.
but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add them back will likely displease many different people depending on which features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button.
It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get more of the related items.
Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/AdobePhotoshop-clicknhold.png shorter link to Photoshop screenshot http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie
I know Photoshop very well, but I don't like the submenus, as they are wasting time (click, hold, wait, look for the right option, move mouse, release...) - this is unnecessary. Look at my new design for another way to deal with that issue, might be more useful than a 'click and hold' menu, and also better than my first suggestion.
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color);
This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it.
OK. What about the right or middle mouse button? Check my new mock-up, I've changed this.
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should be used.
'A rose, by any other name...' - granted, but well - it IS alpha. And Gimp is not Tuxpaint. But I thought about this, and this one should remain as it is today, 'opacity' on the tool settings. Changing the current color sliders from HSVRGB to HSVRGBA would be sufficient.
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional option to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code).
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools
care to explain your reasoning for this reordering?
I changed this one, but I think it's faster if the most common used tool is also the first button on the list. I think 'ordered by importance' is better as ordered random, like it seems today...
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
There is already a preference to remove it. Toolbox, File, Preferences...
Interface,
[] Display Brush, Pattern and Gradient Indicators.
I must have missed this one.
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned:
some paint programs have differnt designs, some even allow you to choose which design you like best but I dont understand what is wrong with the current design, please explain why your suggestion is better.
Check my mock-up, I explained it there. Making the preview bigger and not overlapping would make the preview on the color dialog obsolete.
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.pngSuggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
It is great that you took the time to thnk about how to improve the GIMP but keep in mind that you suggested a whole lot of changes that could take a long time to get done iff there is a developer interested in making the changes you suggest.
I would be glad if I could do this myself, but my C is lousy... ;-)
Well, I know that. I would really like to use the Gimp for production use, but it's still not there - well, it is, technically, but the workflow is not sufficient. I talked to a lot of professional designers, and most of them have issues with the interface only, although most of them admit that Gimp is about as powerful for designers as Photoshop, or even more powerful... It's sad to see that Gimp is considered unsuitable for professional work because of the interface and the poor workflow.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
Thank you for your comments.
Gimp interface streamlining
Hi,
"Joao S. O. Bueno" writes:
In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor.
Swapping FG/BG is per default bound to X (has been in 1.2 already). This is indeed an essential keybinding.
Youa re late on this. It´s possible for one to dinamically assing hot keys to anything on the GIMP menus. Just go for it...hover the cursor over your menu option, and press the hotkey you wnat there. This, IMO is what make the GIMP more dinamically than Photshop and clones band, as I mentioned above.
I am sorry but I don't think you cannot assign keybindings to the layer or paint mode menus.
Sven
Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:49, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:
In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor.
For a long time this has been bound to the 'X' key. Can't live without it. Also 'D' for resetting the colors to default is handy.
cheers
Gimp interface streamlining
Hi,
I would appreciate if you could try to keep this discussion going on both lists. Cross-posting may mean that a few people get the posts twice but since this topic is of interest to both lists, cross-posting seems appropriate.
Sven
Gimp interface streamlining
I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao. I did another design, available at
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png
that's REALLY nice looking, and I like it, not that my opinion counts for much :)
Jon
Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:
Let's check your ideias.
One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series.
To be fair from his screenshot he is clearly using some version of 1.3 http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png
Sincerely
Alan Horkan http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/
Gimp interface streamlining
Willie,
Excellent! Lets hope the right folks are paying attention. Seems like a wonderful idea. It's both more functional *and* more attractive. I've always felt the stock Gimp interface was a little too weird/clumsy in it's layout.
Cheers, Bowie
Bowie J. Poag
----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie Sippel"
To: "Alan Horkan"
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao. I did another design, available at
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.pngOn Wed, 2003-09-03 at 18:17, Alan Horkan wrote:
On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote:
Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200
From: Willie Sippel
To: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamliningHi there.
First post, so please go easy on me ;-).
Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop
clone -
I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ...
and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's
interface
is pretty clumsy and inefficient.
... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either.
1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce
clutter:
Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker;
I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764
I don't want a customizable toolbar, but some of these tools are already modes for paint tools, and the other mentioned tools should be the same.
but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add them back will likely displease many different people depending on which features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button.
It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get more of the related items.
Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu
http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/Ad obePhotoshop-clicknhold.png
shorter link to Photoshop screenshot http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie
I know Photoshop very well, but I don't like the submenus, as they are wasting time (click, hold, wait, look for the right option, move mouse, release...) - this is unnecessary. Look at my new design for another way to deal with that issue, might be more useful than a 'click and hold' menu, and also better than my first suggestion.
5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground
color);
This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it.
OK. What about the right or middle mouse button? Check my new mock-up, I've changed this.
6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker;
Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should
be
used.
'A rose, by any other name...' - granted, but well - it IS alpha. And Gimp is not Tuxpaint. But I thought about this, and this one should remain as it is today, 'opacity' on the tool settings. Changing the current color sliders from HSVRGB to HSVRGBA would be sufficient.
8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact;
There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional
option
to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code).
9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform |
Create
paths | Measure tools
care to explain your reasoning for this reordering?
I changed this one, but I think it's faster if the most common used tool is also the first button on the list. I think 'ordered by importance' is better as ordered random, like it seems today...
15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox,
because
it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even
better
to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox;
There is already a preference to remove it. Toolbox, File, Preferences...
Interface,
[] Display Brush, Pattern and Gradient Indicators.I must have missed this one.
16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned:
some paint programs have differnt designs, some even allow you to choose which design you like best but I dont understand what is wrong with the current design, please explain why your suggestion is better.
Check my mock-up, I explained it there. Making the preview bigger and not overlapping would make the preview on the color dialog obsolete.
Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described suggestions are on the mock-up,
http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.pngSuggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated.
It is great that you took the time to thnk about how to improve the GIMP but keep in mind that you suggested a whole lot of changes that could
take
a long time to get done iff there is a developer interested in making
the
changes you suggest.
I would be glad if I could do this myself, but my C is lousy... ;-)
Well, I know that. I would really like to use the Gimp for production use, but it's still not there - well, it is, technically, but the workflow is not sufficient. I talked to a lot of professional designers, and most of them have issues with the interface only, although most of them admit that Gimp is about as powerful for designers as Photoshop, or even more powerful... It's sad to see that Gimp is considered unsuitable for professional work because of the interface and the poor workflow.
Sincerely
Alan Horkan
http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/Thank you for your comments.
-- Willie Sippel
[ z ] !
Gimp interface streamlining
4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools;
Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the Background color, instead of foreground. In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor.
That's not what I meant, I meant the eraser, not the bg color. But you are right on the keystroke, this would be a great addition.
As for the eraser tool, it is currently the only of the paint tools that paints to transparency without the need to paint on the mask. Besides, the behavior of the "ctrl" key in it comes close, if one is paiting on the background, of the color swapping feature.
And this is exactly the problem, only the eraser tool paints to transparency. And it should be possible to use ANY paint tool to do this. It could be as simple as reversing the alpha value for this tool... Alpha/ erase != bg color (at least if you use more than one layer).
Have you entered this issue as a enhancement bug to Gimp bugzilla? If not would you do it or I could do it, because IMHO it would be a really good thing to have.
I think it's pretty orthogonal to having alpha value in color picker and selector, because it could simply paint to full transparency (based on the properties of the brush and kind of a paint tool). In case of images without alpha channel it would simply paint to background color.
Tom Mraz
Gimp interface streamlining
While talking about UI ideas, how about keyboard-mouse chording?
Currently, while painting with the mouse (or tablet pen), the other hand is presumably idle. Would it be a good idea to be able to use keyboard keys to modify the painting action? I am thinking of some fresh ways to interact using both keybaord and mouse simultaneously. Of course, most keyboard keys are used for shortcuts, so it might be a bit confusing if those keys had a different meaning while drawing with the mouse. But on the other hand, people hardly would do it by mistake?
Wild idea:
Banging on the spacebar with varying frequencey while moving a drawing tool with the mouse would be similar to varying the pressure if you had a pressure-sensitive pen. Each press on the spacebar would temporarily increase the "pressure", which would then slowly decay.
Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse.
Some other keys could be used to modulate the colour, opacity, whatnot.
I'm sure we could brainstorm more similar stuff. Has any program used an UI like this? Does it sound like a good or just goofy idea?
--tml
Gimp interface streamlining
Tor Lillqvist (tml@iki.fi) wrote:
Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse.
Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools.
It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool...
Bye, Simon
Gimp interface streamlining
Am Fre, 2003-09-12 um 11.25 schrieb Simon Budig:
It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool...
The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines which don't have a del key.
--
Servus,
Daniel
Gimp interface streamlining
While talking about UI ideas, how about keyboard-mouse chording?
Wild idea:
Banging on the spacebar with varying frequencey while moving a drawing tool with the mouse would be similar to varying the pressure if you had a pressure-sensitive pen. Each press on the spacebar would temporarily increase the "pressure", which would then slowly decay.
Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse.
Some other keys could be used to modulate the colour, opacity, whatnot.
I'm sure we could brainstorm more similar stuff. Has any program used an UI like this? Does it sound like a good or just goofy idea?
The PalmWac application - an application that turns a PalmOS PDA into a "tablet" that can be used with wacom drivers - uses the PDAs hardware keys to adjust pressure.
Michael
Gimp interface streamlining
From: Jakub Steiner
To: Simon Budig
CC: Gimp Developer
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:22:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 11:25, Simon Budig wrote:
Tor Lillqvist (tml@iki.fi) wrote:
Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse.
Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools.
Which I greatly appreciate and thank you for that. But, you know.. It's kinda awkward for a right-hander to reach for the cursor keys ;)
Ultimately a powermate control would be best.
oooh, wow, /me wants one!
that does sounds like a great control device for use in GIMP though, how likely would support be?
Phil.
cheers
--
Jakub Steiner
Gimp interface streamlining
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 11:25, Simon Budig wrote:
Tor Lillqvist (tml@iki.fi) wrote:
Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse.
Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools.
Which I greatly appreciate and thank you for that. But, you know.. It's kinda awkward for a right-hander to reach for the cursor keys ;)
Ultimately a powermate control would be best.
cheers
Gimp interface streamlining
tor:
you reminded me of a feature which would GREATLY improve the functionality of gimp: moving through the active palette's colors with shortcut keys. i'll create a patch for it at the first opportunity (after learning how to add menu items). its such a uber-useful and simple feature i'm surprised it wasn't implemented LOOOONG ago.
the doc i've written:
in 'navigation' submenu:
'[' ']' prev/next color in palette
'{' '}' prev/next gradient sample *
',' '.' prev/next brush
'' prev/next pattern
{ other prev/next items here }
* gradient sample number should be customizable. and/or movement along
gradient should
have acceleration like spinbuttons, but i don't know if that's doable.
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Daniel Egger wrote:
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:20:13 +0200 From: Daniel Egger
To: Gimp Developer
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamliningAm Fre, 2003-09-12 um 11.25 schrieb Simon Budig:
It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool...
The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines which don't have a del key.
I think Apple is exceptional in that regard and didn't they put some of the keys back in the later iMac designs?
Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things with on other platforms couldn't we use delete as well as another keybinding for the benifit of Mac users?
- Alan H.
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Alan Horkan wrote:
It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool...
The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines which don't have a del key.
I think Apple is exceptional in that regard and didn't they put some of the keys back in the later iMac designs?
Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things with on other platforms couldn't we use delete as well as another keybinding for the benifit of Mac users?
It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards.
Simply put, most people should have the key. However, how about using backspace, which IMO is more intuitive for deleting things. (Though it could be used by something else, I'm not entirely sure.)
Marco
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Marco Wessel wrote:
It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards.
Simply put, most people should have the key. However, how about using backspace, which IMO is more intuitive for deleting things. (Though it could be used by something else, I'm not entirely sure.)
Backspace is used to clear a dynamic a dynamic menu keybinding. (Not to rule out the possibility of that specific context being made properly isolated to allow use of Backspace else where).
sincerely
Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 23.30 schrieb Marco Wessel:
It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key.
Just curious, where is it on the later keyboards?
As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards.
None of the notebooks have it which are oddly enough quite common to find at artists.
Simply put, most people should have the key.
Talking about all users sure, with Mac users I'd be careful with this claim.
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 22.38 schrieb Alan Horkan:
Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things
Actually I believe that having both a backspace and a delete key is confusing in the original wordprocessing meaning; why would one want to delete a character following the cursor?
Personally I've been living without one for years now and I'm not missing it except when some UI designers think that the delete key is more straight forward than the backspace key and unfortunately mapped some often used function to it like deleting mail....
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
Daniel Egger wrote:
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 22.38 schrieb Alan Horkan:
Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things
Actually I believe that having both a backspace and a delete key is confusing in the original wordprocessing meaning; why would one want to delete a character following the cursor?
Personally I've been living without one for years now and I'm not missing it except when some UI designers think that the delete key is more straight forward than the backspace key and unfortunately mapped some often used function to it like deleting mail....
slowly i learn how to use the delete key. i would not miss it.
typewriters had only a backspace key. many a fine document has been typed without one.
carol
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Daniel Egger wrote:
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 23.30 schrieb Marco Wessel:
It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key.
Just curious, where is it on the later keyboards?
Same place as ever. Right under ins/help, next to end.
As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards.
None of the notebooks have it which are oddly enough quite common to find at artists.
I don't know about the PC notebooks, but the powerbooks don't have one. Of course their keyboard is smaller than the iMac one, and the key is rarely used on macs. So this is understandable.
Simply put, most people should have the key.
Talking about all users sure, with Mac users I'd be careful with this claim.
Most pro users will have replaced their keyboards with the larger keyboard. The larger part of the non-powerbook folks will have it.
Anyway, I recall forward delete being shift-backspace in macos on those keyboard, and I even recall using that. Oddly, when I just tried it, it didn't work. I'm guessing it's an option somewhere.
Marco
