free wrote:

I just installed the gimp 2.9 in my computer to see the unified transform tool. Cool!

thanks!

I was wondering what are your plans towards the other separated transform tools - scale, rotate, etc. Are they coming together with the unified tool in 2.10 or they will be removed?

part of the design and its goals is that most of the other transform tools are removed (see below); all will go except for rotate and perspective tools, which will need to be redesigned as precision rotate and precision perspective tools.

actually next month I am teaching interaction again and will give my students the exercise precision rotate and precision perspective one or two tools? including of course redesigning the tools.

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical. it must be more complicated and the tool(s) should not end up as 2-trick pony(s).

about removed: I can imagine that instead of radically tossed out, the removed transform tools will be simply (force-)unchecked to show up in the toolbox by default, but still be part of the installation.

Also, the icon for the tool is final or another one will be designed?

I have not got 2.9 running at the moment, but googling screenshots showed that the tool icon is at the moment totally not what it should be.

also I see that the tool options have become the victim of bloat in the meanwhile. it was probably all well intended. it is up to me to work with the developer and clean that up.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 4:41 PM, peter sikking wrote:

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical. it must be more complicated and the tool(s) should not end up as 2-trick pony(s).

Would a Google+ post help you to collect input?

also I see that the tool options have become the victim of bloat in the meanwhile. it was probably all well intended. it is up to me to work with the developer and clean that up.

That would be most appreciated :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Alexandre wrote:

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical. it must be more complicated and the tool(s) should not end up as 2-trick pony(s).

Would a Google+ post help you to collect input?

we can simply try it out; benefit of being open.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

On Fri, 2013-02-22 at 13:41 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

actually next month I am teaching interaction again and will give my students the exercise ‘precision rotate and precision perspective one or two tools?’ including of course redesigning the tools.

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical.

Actually, getting verticals vertical with a print-sized image isn't possible right now, you can't rotate if you can't see the edges or centre of the canvas.

Some other use cases: * skew by 45 degrees, or by a specific measured distance * repeat a rotation but rotate by five degrees more than last time * scale a selection that's too large to fit on the screen

I am still using the older transform tools because they work so much better for me *right now*, I can enter numbers, I can see the numbers in the undo history and redo with slightly different numbers, I can drag any part of the corrective preview grid. (I almost always use them in corrective/reverse mode).

Once the numbers are all available to be edited on the fly and once the undo history says "rotate 15°" instead of "some general transform or other" the tools will be much more useful, I'll be able to use the numbers when I can't reach the edges of the canvas to rotate.

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

Liam wrote:

actually next month I am teaching interaction again and will give my students the exercise precision rotate and precision perspective one or two tools? including of course redesigning the tools.

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical.

Actually, getting verticals vertical with a print-sized image isn't possible right now, you can't rotate if you can't see the edges or centre of the canvas.

Some other use cases: * skew by 45 degrees, or by a specific measured distance * repeat a rotation but rotate by five degrees more than last time * scale a selection that's too large to fit on the screen

thanks for contributing.

would the last one not be done better with a dialog box from a menu command? could be interactive before committing.

I am still using the older transform tools because they work so much better for me *right now*, I can enter numbers, I can see the numbers in the undo history and redo with slightly different numbers, I can drag any part of the corrective preview grid. (I almost always use them in corrective/reverse mode).

Once the numbers are all available to be edited on the fly and once the undo history says "rotate 15" instead of "some general transform or other" the tools will be much more useful, I'll be able to use the numbers when I can't reach the edges of the canvas to rotate.

let me make clear that the new tool is the general tool for doing things by _feeling_. there will never be number entry in this tool, it is optimised for other things. also this corrective mode I see right now in the new tool is completely misplaced, 100% against the goals of the tool.

everything you (Liam) need and ask for has its place in the redesigned precision rotate and perspective tool(s).

I do expect that the redesigned precision tool(s) need to gain some features for that.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

On Fri, 2013-02-22 at 21:16 +0100, peter sikking wrote: [...]

Some other use cases:
* skew by 45 degrees, or by a specific measured distance * repeat a rotation but rotate by five degrees more than last time * scale a selection that's too large to fit on the screen

thanks for contributing.

would the last one not be done better with a dialog box from a menu command? could be interactive before committing.

It might be; duplicate / rotate / duplicate rotate again, actually makes more sense in a vector appliation where there's no reduction of quality for repeated rotations than in today's gimp.

[...]

everything you (Liam) need and ask for has its place in the redesigned precision rotate and perspective tool(s).

I do expect that the redesigned precision tool(s) need to gain some features for that.

Thank you for the response. In that case all the existing transform tools need to stay, of course. Even when I work by feel I want to be able to undo, and redo almost-but-not-quite, and the numbers make that possible, rather like the "saved settings" in Curves.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

[resent from the right mail account. Evolution actually sucks if you have multiple mail accounts as it seems to choose the one for replies at random]

On Fri, 2013-02-22 at 21:16 +0100, peter sikking wrote: [...]

Some other use cases:
* skew by 45 degrees, or by a specific measured distance * repeat a rotation but rotate by five degrees more than last time * scale a selection that's too large to fit on the screen

thanks for contributing.

would the last one not be done better with a dialog box from a menu command? could be interactive before committing.

It might be; duplicate / rotate / duplicate rotate again, actually makes more sense in a vector appliation where there's no reduction of quality for repeated rotations than in today's gimp.

[...]

everything you (Liam) need and ask for has its place in the redesigned precision rotate and perspective tool(s).

I do expect that the redesigned precision tool(s) need to gain some features for that.

Thank you for the response. In that case all the existing transform tools need to stay, of course. Even when I work by feel I want to be able to undo, and redo almost-but-not-quite, and the numbers make that possible, rather like the "saved settings" in Curves.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

-- 
Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

* Liam R E Quin [02-23-13 00:00]:

[resent from the right mail account. Evolution actually sucks if you have multiple mail accounts as it seems to choose the one for replies at random]

And the choice of employing such email client, which lies with the user.

ps: It doesn't even wrap lines. Does it make coffee?

(paka)Patrick Shanahan       Plainfield, Indiana, USA      HOG # US1244711
http://wahoo.no-ip.org        Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2
http://en.opensuse.org                           openSUSE Community Member
Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net

I wrote:

Alexandre wrote:

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical. it must be more complicated and the tool(s) should not end up as 2-trick pony(s).

Would a Google+ post help you to collect input?

we can simply try it out; benefit of being open.

I see the g+ post has not been sent out.

Alexandre: please dont bother.

the whole discussion went sour on friday. at the moment there is no sense of fun, contribution and accomplishment in the transformation tools topic.

so I am not working on it until that is alleviated.

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

Quoting an artist:

"It's quite common for texture artists to work with multiple parts of a texture in the same file. They may for instance have diffuse, spec and bump all in one xcf or psd file, then they change the visibility settings of the different layers or layer groups, to save out each texture type. Being able to define sets, and give them a path and file format to save to would be quite handy, as once that is set up, you could literally write out all the different parts of you texture at the push of a button."

I've heard this request from 2 or 3 people. That is not a significant sampling, but the feature will be handy to at least two more groups of users:

- web designers (keep design variations in a single file, export all) - photographers (use global mask for different processing variations, export all variations to different files)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Add me on this request.

Even if you don't generate several texture from a single xcf, you often have a layer with the unwrapped 3D model layout, that you forget to disable every time before exporting.

2013/2/24 Alexandre Prokoudine

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

Quoting an artist:

"It's quite common for texture artists to work with multiple parts of a texture in the same file. They may for instance have diffuse, spec and bump all in one xcf or psd file, then they change the visibility settings of the different layers or layer groups, to save out each texture type. Being able to define sets, and give them a path and file format to save to would be quite handy, as once that is set up, you could literally write out all the different parts of you texture at the push of a button."

I've heard this request from 2 or 3 people. That is not a significant sampling, but the feature will be handy to at least two more groups of users:

- web designers (keep design variations in a single file, export all) - photographers (use global mask for different processing variations, export all variations to different files)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Michael

On 24 February 2013 09:23, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

Quoting an artist:

"It's quite common for texture artists to work with multiple parts of a texture in the same file. They may for instance have diffuse, spec and bump all in one xcf or psd file, then they change the visibility settings of the different layers or layer groups, to save out each texture type. Being able to define sets, and give them a path and file format to save to would be quite handy, as once that is set up, you could literally write out all the different parts of you texture at the push of a button."

I've heard this request from 2 or 3 people. That is not a significant sampling, but the feature will be handy to at least two more groups of users:

- web designers (keep design variations in a single file, export all) - photographers (use global mask for different processing variations, export all variations to different files)

This kind of things can be imploemented as a Python script -which makes it fast to implement - however, scritps are limited in the way they can interact with the program.

(They can't for example, add features to the layer dialog other than menu entries to the right-click context menu).

While it is possible to use existing features in the plug-in: for example I had a script to simulate layer groups before they where implemented that made use of the "linked" property of layers to allow one to select which would be in a group.

Besides being easier to code, attending such a feature in form of a plug-in has the advantage of it being available immediatly to the requesters - *(i.e. they won't have to wait GIMP 2.10) But it does imply in severe constraints for the UI design team.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote:

This kind of things can be imploemented as a Python script

I very, very much doubt that.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 02/22/2013 01:41 PM, peter sikking wrote:

actually next month I am teaching interaction again and will give my students the exercise precision rotate and precision perspective one or two tools? including of course redesigning the tools.

I will need some essential scenarios for that, beyond the obvious photo horizon correction and getting verticals vertical. it must be more complicated and the tool(s) should not end up as 2-trick pony(s).

A frequent use case is aligning two objects on two different layers, which involves simultaneous scale and rotation of one of the objects... And where you discover quickly why scaling and rotation should both have an arbitrary (and identical) center.

In current Gimp the only practical way of doing this is to use the exact-aligner script (because every rotation/scaling introduces some blur so you want to do it in one single operation, so step-wise scale/rotate is out of the question).

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

it would not be bad if some more ideas popped up.

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

Here's one thing that I've long wanted: *
*
*Relative Layer Positioning
*
I'm unsure about the name for such a thing, what I had in mind is:

- Often, I don't care much about exact positioning of a layer in the canvas.
- I care more about where it lies with respect to another layer. - I care that one line of text is on the same level as another. - I would like one ellipse exactly at the same level as another. - I want to align all the elements of the footer in my poster. - I want to decide whether this layer I want to move should be horizontally aligned or vertically aligned with the adjacent layer.

I'm sure I could think of a few other use cases, but this I think is roughly it.
The feature is quite evidently not new. We've all used it in many apps.

I just thought I'd put my need out there.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

it would not be bad if some more ideas popped up.

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list

Srihari Sriraman

One thing I wish Gimp had is a better eyedropper tool for checking color values. That is the one thing, practially the only thing, that PhotoShop had (and presumably still has) that I wish Gimp had. The PhotoShop eyedropper tool simultaneously showed RGB, CMYK, and LAB values, at user-settable 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit floating point precision. Right now if I want to find a LAB value for a color I have to export the image and open it with CinePaint or Krita.

Another feature that would be nice (if it doesn't already exist and I just haven't found it yet), is the ability to highlight different "Zones" in an image. Lightzone had that ability. It's a pretty nice tool to have when working with curves and levels to alter image tonality, especially for people with monitors that are not properly calibrated/color-managed and so can't be relied on to give good visual feedback.

Elle

On 2/28/13, peter sikking wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

it would not be bad if some more ideas popped up.

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list

http://ninedegreesbelow.com - articles on open source digital photography

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:07 PM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

Here's one thing that I've long wanted:

Relative Layer Positioning

I'm unsure about the name for such a thing, what I had in mind is:

Often, I don't care much about exact positioning of a layer in the canvas. I care more about where it lies with respect to another layer. I care that one line of text is on the same level as another. I would like one ellipse exactly at the same level as another. I want to align all the elements of the footer in my poster. I want to decide whether this layer I want to move should be horizontally aligned or vertically aligned with the adjacent layer.

Are you talking about adding more options to the existing Align/Distribute tool?

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 2/28/13, Elle Stone wrote:

One thing I wish Gimp had is a better eyedropper tool for checking color values. That is the one thing, practially the only thing, that PhotoShop had (and presumably still has) that I wish Gimp had. The PhotoShop eyedropper tool simultaneously showed RGB, CMYK, and LAB values, at user-settable 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit floating point precision. Right now if I want to find a LAB value for a color I have to export the image and open it with CinePaint or Krita.

The Krita eyedropper is an even better model than the Photoshop eyedropper as the Krita eyedropper allows you to pick any RGB or CMYK color space to read values in, not just whatever is configured in preferences. That would be very useful for softproofing purposes when preparing an image for export/output.

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:16:28 -0500 From: l.elle.stone@gmail.com
To: peter@mmiworks.net
CC: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] now: project ideas, was: unified transform tool

One thing I wish Gimp had is a better eyedropper tool for checking color values. That is the one thing, practially the only thing, that PhotoShop had (and presumably still has) that I wish Gimp had. The PhotoShop eyedropper tool simultaneously showed RGB, CMYK, and LAB values, at user-settable 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit floating point precision. Right now if I want to find a LAB value for a color I have to export the image and open it with CinePaint or Krita.

Speaking of LAB, GIMP can decompose an image into LAB layers but (1) the LAB decomp has problems with gamma encoding and (2) it's not something you can simply eyedrop whenever you want to.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth. =

Have you tried using the alignment tool? You're basically describing the needs it was created to address.

-- Bill

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

Here's one thing that I've long wanted: *
*
*Relative Layer Positioning
*
I'm unsure about the name for such a thing, what I had in mind is:

- Often, I don't care much about exact positioning of a layer in the canvas.
- I care more about where it lies with respect to another layer. - I care that one line of text is on the same level as another. - I would like one ellipse exactly at the same level as another. - I want to align all the elements of the footer in my poster. - I want to decide whether this layer I want to move should be horizontally aligned or vertically aligned with the adjacent layer.

I'm sure I could think of a few other use cases, but this I think is roughly it.
The feature is quite evidently not new. We've all used it in many apps.

I just thought I'd put my need out there.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

it would not be bad if some more ideas popped up.

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list

--
Srihari Sriraman

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Are you talking about adding more options to the existing Align/Distribute tool?

Have you tried using the alignment tool? You're basically describing the

needs it was created to address.

Wow. Nice. I hadn't tried this earlier. This indeed addresses the issue I had in mind.

In my mind, I expected this to work more like the move tool. I pictured something like 'move and snap to layer edges'. That I think, would be effective. (I'll gladly elaborate on this idea if needed)
Also, it could be a good UI and UX exercise trying to model this out.

Thanks for telling me about this tool. I shall use it more extensively and get back.

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 9:42 PM, Bill Skaggs wrote:

Have you tried using the alignment tool? You're basically describing the needs it was created to address.

-- Bill

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Srihari Sriraman wrote:

Here's one thing that I've long wanted: *
*
*Relative Layer Positioning
*
I'm unsure about the name for such a thing, what I had in mind is:

- Often, I don't care much about exact positioning of a layer in the canvas.
- I care more about where it lies with respect to another layer. - I care that one line of text is on the same level as another. - I would like one ellipse exactly at the same level as another. - I want to align all the elements of the footer in my poster. - I want to decide whether this layer I want to move should be horizontally aligned or vertically aligned with the adjacent layer.

I'm sure I could think of a few other use cases, but this I think is roughly it.
The feature is quite evidently not new. We've all used it in many apps.

I just thought I'd put my need out there.

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 4:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

meanwhile, I am looking for a new small design project to put before my students in a months time. any ideas.

It seems that folks who create textures for 3D projects really want us to build advanced features on top of the new save/export model.

One such feature is mentioned in the GSoC2013 page: being able to export/overwrite from sets of layers.

it would not be bad if some more ideas popped up.

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list

--
Srihari Sriraman

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Srihari Sriraman