On 08/04/2009 01:29 AM, Christopher Howard wrote:

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http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774

Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to make it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image rulers. However, it looks like the last comment was made about three years ago. Since I'm new around here, I was wondering if there had been any relevant discussion on the issue recently. (Or related discussion.)

Hi,

There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps fulfill the product vision [1].

BR, Martin

[1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

Martin Nordholts wrote:

There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps fulfill the product vision [1].

As left clicking and dragging with the mouse creates new freely movable guides (left click-drag the upper ruler for horizontal guides, left click-drag the left ruler for vertical guides), I suggest that clicking and dragging the rulers (left-right for the upper one, up-down for the vertical one) with another mouse button (for example middle or right) could move their respective origin (zero point).

Then, another option in the "Image" menu and below "Configure Guides...", called "Configure Rulers...", could be added for more precise ruler option settings (I was thinking not only the origin, but also font, style, number of notches, etc, if it's possible).

But this is just my 2-minutes brainstorm.

On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 17:45 -0800, Christopher Howard wrote:

[...]

. In other words, the user could have the rulers tell him that point 0,0 begins at, say, the center of the image, instead of the top-left. This is a feature which would be useful to web developers and perhaps also game sprite developers.

A sufficiently discoverable and also precise way to do that might be to have a context (pop-up) menu on the rulers, with items such as, "add new guide" (same as dragging a guide out) "set ruler zero-point to here"
"0 is on the left (default)"
"0 is on the right"
"units >" (submenu)
"[v] show guides"

However, I also see that there are other parts of the User Interface that display coordinates, including the box at the bottom left of the main window, and several tools such as the measuring tool. So the question I asked was: if it is possible to have an offset in the rulers, should all these components be in sync with the rulers?

Seems to me 0,0 is always going to be the top left corner of the image. There's no way to have multiple coordinate systems without confusing anyone not of a mathematical bent. It sounds like they should all work together, but that would mean moving the origin of the image itself, which might confuse scripts (e.g. they don't expect data at negative coordinates I think) and might affect layer offsets when files are exported. So it should only be a "view" thing, and then it doesn't need to be the same as the coordinates elsewhere, perhaps?

Liam

Hi,

On Wed, 2009-08-05 at 17:45 -0800, Christopher Howard wrote:

However, I also see that there are other parts of the User Interface that display coordinates, including the box at the bottom left of the main window, and several tools such as the measuring tool. So the question I asked was: if it is possible to have an offset in the rulers, should all these components be in sync with the rulers?

IMO all places that show coordinates need to be adjusted. Otherwise it will be a total mess. Of course the actual image origin will still be 0, 0. We are just talking about the user interface parts that display coordinates. The core shouldn't know about this.

Sven

On 5 Aug 2009, at 7:39, Martin Nordholts wrote:

I am only a month late...

On 08/04/2009 01:29 AM, Christopher Howard wrote:

http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164774

Hi - I was going to look into this enhancement. It was a request to make
it possible for the user to change the zero-point of the image rulers.

There hasn't been any further discussion, but we should have one. The first step would be to figure out a UI for the feature that helps fulfill the product vision [1].

one way that is in use in graphics apps and which I diagnose as being pretty good is:

grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it anywhere on the canvas.

the dragging around needs to auto-scroll the canvas just as dragging guides does (it does, does it?). also while dragging the coordinates of the bottom left corner of square (hmmm, do our rulers go r-to-l for r-to-l locales?) that is dragged around c.v. the up-to-then origin needs to be displayed.

it would not be bad to comply with 'snap to canvas edge' when set. somehow it feels wrong to me to snap to guides for this action.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

second try sending this...

Liam wrote:

On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 00:00 +0200, peter sikking wrote: [///]

grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it anywhere on the canvas.

the place that currently gives a pop-up menu?

damn. yes.

can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar right
below the menu bar?

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, peter sikking wrote:

second try sending this...

Liam wrote:

On Thu, 2009-09-10 at 00:00 +0200, peter sikking wrote: [///]

grab the top-left square where the 2 rulers cross and drag+drop it anywhere on the canvas.

the place that currently gives a pop-up menu?

damn. yes.

can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar right
below the menu bar?

The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not. (being that it belongs to the rulers) Not that that is a good reason. I think it's confusing being able to access menus 3 different ways, and the tiny icon is really not very easy to click.

David Gowers (00ai99@gmail.com) wrote:

On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:54 PM, peter sikking wrote:

can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar right below the menu bar?

The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not.

Well, it has been introduced in the times where there was *no* menubar and tablet-users (with no RMB) needed a way to invoke the menu.

Bye, Simon

Simon Budig wrote:

David Gowers wrote:

peter sikking wrote:

can somebody tell me why we have a tiny replacement for the menu bar right below the menu bar?

The obvious answer here is that it's visible when the menubar is not.

Well, it has been introduced in the times where there was *no* menubar and tablet-users (with no RMB) needed a way to invoke the menu.

so now on the one hand there is the impression that this is legacy UI (aka old cruft) but on the other hand I am reluctant just to drive a bulldozer over it.

it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff would be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there, to create a chance of having a clean image window and be able to create guides.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 20:43 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff would be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there,

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by Percent)}? What would this "decoupling" add to this?

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 20:43 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

it would however be fully reasonable is only ruler type of stuff would
be dependent on rulers being displayed. even creating guides has to be one day be decoupled (don't know how yet) from rulers being there,

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by
Percent)}? What would this "decoupling" add to this?

being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there' by feeling using your expert eye.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by
Percent)}? What would this "decoupling" add to this?

being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there' by feeling using your expert eye.

You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers. Ruler visibility has be to toggled (when working in a "clean window") but I would say that's less complex and more intuitive than overloading keyboard/mouse combinations. Rotating guides after creation is a separate matter related to guide management, not guide creation.

I don't think current guide creation is complex enough (even when aiming for a "clean window") to warrant separation from rulers, IMHO.

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by
Percent)}? What would this "decoupling" add to this?

being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there' by feeling using your expert eye.

You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.

I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 5:09 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 22:21 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

Michael J. Hammel wrote:

Isn't this already possible with Image->Guides->{New Guide,New Guide (by
Percent)}?  What would this "decoupling" add to this?

being able to place a new guide with your mouse 'just there' by feeling using your expert eye.

You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.

I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.

However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well - something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click on the window and get a new guide. Maybe some sort of modifier to toggle/go horizontal/vertical? Seems like part of the code would already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...

0.02 Chris

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 17:50 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:

I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.

However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well - something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click on the window and get a new guide. Maybe some sort of modifier to toggle/go horizontal/vertical? Seems like part of the code would already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...

This is actually the point I'm trying to make. How is any key/mouse combination going to be any more intuitive/less complex than dragging from a ruler? Decoupling adds complexity (at a minimum forcing users to learn a new process, but probably worse than that) for the sake of cleanliness (re: being able to hide the rulers), but I don't think the trade offs are worth it.

In other words, I don't see that remembering something like "Ctrl-Alt-Shift-R right mouse click" is any improvement over "view ruler, drag guide from ruler, hide ruler" (assuming this only applies to situations where the canvas is not showing the rulers in the first place) especially when the latter is possible with one hand and one finger. Yes, simpler keyboard modifiers are possible but most are already taken and it may not be so easy to assign a meaningful one to this particular process.

So, again IMHO, the effort required to change this is hardly worth the benefit gained by its implementation, especially when the result may not (arguably) be an improvement in the UI.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Michael J. Hammel wrote:

On Mon, 2009-09-14 at 17:50 -0500, Chris Mohler wrote:

I think it's reasonable to pair rulers and guides, and would certainly want to keep the ability to drag a guide from a ruler.

However, if there were an alternate method I might use it as well - something like press a key, the mouse is now dragging a guide, click on the window and get a new guide.  Maybe some sort of modifier to toggle/go horizontal/vertical?  Seems like part of the code would already be there in the 'New Guide' menu item, but have not looked...

This is actually the point I'm trying to make.  How is any key/mouse combination going to be any more intuitive/less complex than dragging from a ruler?  Decoupling adds complexity (at a minimum forcing users to learn a new process, but probably worse than that) for the sake of cleanliness (re: being able to hide the rulers), but I don't think the trade offs are worth it.

Well, I don't think so either. I find the method of dragging from the ruler to be quite intuitive already. Then again, I was trained since PS 2.0 (or thereabouts) that guides come from rulers - so I might be biased ;) But if ui team is determined to find a way to add guides w/o rulers, then a kb shortcut is the way I'd go - that's all I had to say :)

Chris

In other words, I don't see that remembering something like "Ctrl-Alt-Shift-R right mouse click" is any improvement over "view ruler, drag guide from ruler, hide ruler" (assuming this only applies to situations where the canvas is not showing the rulers in the first place) especially when the latter is possible with one hand and one finger.  Yes, simpler keyboard modifiers are possible but most are already taken and it may not be so easy to assign a meaningful one to this particular process.

And there is already Shift-Ctrl-R ro toggle rulers! So hotkey, drag, hotkey.

-Rob A>

On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 2:09 AM, peter sikking wrote:

You can already do this with guides - just drag them from the rulers.

I was aiming for this without involving rulers...

Indeed it can be done. Scribus for one has a Manage Guides dialog that allows:

1. Adding/Removing single h/v guides with Astonishing Precision (C)(R) :) 2. Adding/Removing h/v guides in rows and columns 3. Removing guides from current/all pages

However removing drag-a-guide-from-ruler functionality will lead to bugreports that will basically boil down to something in the lines of "Are you crazy? GIMP doesn't have such a simple thing?". Creating a guide by dragging it from a ruler is really one of the habits that won't die any time soon. And there is no proof it should, is there? :)

Alexandre