Maciej Pilichowski (bluedzins@wp.pl) wrote (in part) (on 2009-05-14 at 09:08):

But for zooming out there is no such "cheap" workaround. Image:

DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC

letters are off the screen, digits are visible. | denotes edges

Now -- I would like to zoom out on "5" (I would like to focus on that area), how do I do?

a) move mouse over "1" (sic!) and zoom out b) move mouse over "5", zoom out, and then scroll the image

ad.b) this is tiresome ad.a) this is completely counter-intuitive, in order to zoom out element X I need to zoom out the opposite of X. This is more problematic with conversion when car driver gets on yacht (leftright problem)

If you've zoomed in using the Zoom tool and drawing an area with mouse-click and drag ...
as you say - not easily discoverable, but once discovered, moving mouse to extreme left (or slightly better results extreme top left) appears to leave desired area always visible though at some point a mouse wheel scroll may be necessary.

However (I hadn't tried this before) if with zoom-tool you do Ctrl+click+drag to define "area of interest" then release AFAICT the "area of interest" always remains visible. Possible problem (?) - you may find it zooms out "too quickly". Again AFAICT ctrl+drag-drop a "large" area gives better results than a "small" area. ie. small area vs large area zoom-out may indicate why ctrl+click zoom-out may be giving you problems?

And more about (a) -- while zooming in, the mouse cursor movement is small, so I can live with that, but on zooming out, the movement is huge -- it is entire screen.

The wish: --------
Please recenter focused area on zoom out (and possible on zoom in).

Hi,

On Thu, 2009-05-14 at 15:08 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC
DEFGHIJK|12345|ABC

letters are off the screen, digits are visible. | denotes edges

Now -- I would like to zoom out on "5" (I would like to focus on that area), how do I do?

What is your definition of "focusing on that area"? Focusing on the 5 for means having 5 under the mouse pointer. And that is exactly how zoom is implemented right now. You put 5 under the mouse pointer and no matter if you zoom in or out, it will stay there. Now how can you possibly argue that this is not intuitive and useful? I seriously don't understand your problem. Nor do I understand what changes you are suggesting.

Possible solution:
------------------
The centering idea -- please note that I am open to any other idea that would lead to productivity boost. Let's focus on zoom out: * I point out the area
* I zoom out
* gimp know which area I would like to focus on, so the whole image is scrolled
in such way, that the area "travels" towards center of the window

How is the center of the window relevant? What counts is what's under the cursor as that is where you are going to work next.

Sven

Hi,

On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 20:20 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

Currently the image is "glued" to the mouse cursor which I don't find any useful -- I would like to see "big picture" (or "more details"), I move the mouse anyway.

Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. If you zoom out too far, you can easily zoom back in without loosing the area of interest. I think that clearly outweights the lack of context you may get. And you only get that when your cursor is far off the image center.

Sven

Hi,

On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:55 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote:

Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent.

Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image.

We had it implemented that way, but it caused too much other problems. You can follow all this by reading the mailing-list archives and by studying the specs published at http://gui.gimp.org/ Of course we are open to improves these specifications further. But your proposals should be made after understanding the reasons for the current behavior.

Sven

On Friday, May 15, 2009, 21:38:04, Sven Neumann wrote:

Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent. If you zoom out too far, you can easily zoom back in without loosing the area of interest. I think that clearly outweights the lack of context you may get.

I by far prefer the behaviour of PSP - the closer to the edge of image you zoom, the more the viewport moves in that direction. Makes it really easy (and fast) to move around the image by just rolling the wheel up and down (which zooms in and out in PSP, regardless of the selected tool).

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 22:10, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

On Friday 15 May 2009 22:02:53 Sven Neumann wrote:

On Fri, 2009-05-15 at 21:55 +0200, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

On Friday 15 May 2009 21:38:04 Sven Neumann wrote:

Keeping the pixel under the mouse cursor fixed has the advantage that the behavior for zooming in and out is consistent.

Well, it would be consistent if gimp consistently kept this pixel-cursor relation. But it is not (gimp 2.6.6). Open any image smaller than window, point out on anything not in center. Zoom in. Voila, you are pointing at something else now, because gimp does not shift view of the image.

We had it implemented that way, but it caused too much other problems.

I just commented to your "zooming in and out _is_ consistent". It is not. The reason why it is not is another story. Thank you for the reference of course.

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, I just wanted to point out that Sven is not alone in his opinion. Yes you're right, if you zoom out far enough, so that the image is smaller than your viewing window, this behavior no longer applies. However, I frequently find myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window). If I do zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow).

Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor, imagine it being some other way (and yes, there are some maps-services doing it differently, primary reason for me not using them even if they sometimes have better source material).

http://gui.gimp.org/  Of course we are open to improves these specifications further. But your proposals should be made after understanding the reasons for the current behavior.

You are right, thank you.

Cheers,

PS. I _am_ subscriber to this ML :-) No need to CC me.

OK! :)

Just my two cents... Greetings,
Fredrik.

Instead of zooming in and out all the time why not vreate a new view at the other zoom to have both always available?

-Rob A.

On 5/17/09, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

On Sunday 17 May 2009 13:08:33 Fredrik Alströmer wrote:

I don't want to add fuel to the fire,

Nah :-), we are talking not quarreling :-))

I just wanted to point out
that Sven is not alone in his opinion.

I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit.

I frequently find
myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window).

This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me.

If I do
zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow).

For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted.

Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor,

I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone.

The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing in&out is preserved.

Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too.

If those 3 modes cannot be combined into one (and I guess not), I would love to see an option for it. After all, not every single behaviour work for everybody.

For me usefulness is such: 1) center while zooming (PSP)
2) google maps
3) gimp

ad.2) that's because it is similar to (1). I could center the area of interest by myself, and then zoom out/in as many times as I want to, and this area is still in the center. This mode could be achieved in theory with the script, but gimp cannot scroll the image freely so the usability would be limited to cases when the image fits entire window

Cheers,
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 15:01, Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

On Sunday 17 May 2009 13:08:33 Fredrik Alströmer wrote:

I don't want to add fuel to the fire,

Nah :-), we are talking not quarreling :-))

Well, in that case... ;)

I just wanted to point out
that Sven is not alone in his opinion.

I realize that the current behaviour has the reason, but also I try find out the way, so users with other workflow could benefit.

It'll probably be very hard to solve for everyone, I guess solving for 'most people' (don't try to get a definition out of me on that one..) ;) is the best we can do. Note that I'm not saying I'm necessarily one of that group.

I frequently find
myself zooming out briefly to see how it works in context, just to zoom back in again a split-second later (very rarely zooming far enough to have the image become smaller than the window).

This is odd, or I don't understand you -- that's because I do what you do, and I always have to zoom out to such degree that the entire image fits in the window. In other words I have to do 10 zoom outs instead of just 1. And it is not helpful for me.

I must say, now I don't understand what you're saying, so chances are there's been a misunderstanding here.. :) All I'm trying to say is that I zoom out and back in, perhaps a level or two to see the context, and without moving the mouse I zoom right back in again and get exactly the same view.

If I do
zoom out to see the whole image, I'm usually done with that section anyway, and at that point it's actually a good behavior (call it a compromise if you wish, for me it just speeds up the workflow).

For me it slows me down, because after 10 zoom outs, I have to perform 9 zoom ins, to get back to the level I wanted.

Ok, so now you've lost me. You're asking for kind of a 'bookmarked view', so you don't have to zoom in again but rather 'undo' your zoom outs?

Google maps is one of those that zoom in and out on the cursor,

I just tried it, and it does not that (Firefox) -- it zooms the center of the image. I pointed out at Miami which was in the bottom right corner of the image, zoom in, Miami was gone.

I just tried the same thing, and I ended up in Opa-Locka, Miami... Seriously though, how do you zoom in? (The behavior you're describing is consistent with clicking the + and - buttons? Keyboard perhaps?) If you're not using the scroll-wheel, than go ahead and take it for a spin.

Zooming back out, same story, mouse in the lower right, and that's exactly where Miami ends up.

The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing in&out is preserved.

Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too.

If those 3 modes cannot be combined into one (and I guess not), I would love to see an option for it. After all, not every single behaviour work for everybody.

Adding options is rarely the answer. It has a tendency to blow an application to pieces. See this here for example (ok, perhaps a bit exaggerated, but still funny, and on a meta-level actually rather accurate)

http://stuffthathappens.com/blog/2008/03/05/simplicity/

I'm not familiar enough with the plug-in interfaces, but perhaps the behavior could be overridden using a plug-in, keeping the core product nice and clean.

Greetings,
Fredrik.

On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Rob Antonishen wrote:

Instead of zooming in and out all the time why not vreate a new view at the other zoom to have both always available?

So we are back to the old magnifying lens discussion? :)

Alexandre

The effect of this (fixed point of zoom) is that the relation to mouse when doing in&out is preserved.

Jernej pointed out that PaintShopPro behaves like I wished for, so they had a reason for this too.

I think this is the main point from a GUI design angle. The GUI should be consistant in it's action. Scroll-wheel zooming in and out is a great feature for the most part. The point at which the behaviour changes and it jumps to one side is mentally disrouting and breaks work flow.

It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred.

It seems that this assumption needs to be re-examined. Is this always the best behaviour?

On opening an image it would seem a logical choice but on zooming out I would maintain that continuity of the mental focal point is the most important for usability and workflow.

In this context whether the user wishes to ALSO centre the image in the window is a secondary and largely separate issue. This can be achieved by a shrink wrap for example.

I'm glad this subject has come up because this is a constant annoyance when working close in on images. The initial zoom-in is generally a series of zoom-drag-zoom-drag.... operations.

There is no reason why subsequently re-zooming to the same work area should be equally laborious.

/gg

gg wrote:

It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred.

Yes this is correct. Before we added this logic it was a pain to work with the zoom; often when you zoomed out the image ended up completely offsetted out in a corner in the image window.

I am completely open to improving zoom however since I also have the feeling it is not working as perfect as it could, including the zoom logic where the pixel remains under cursor while zooming.

Someone just has to sit down and write a spec on how it should work and which gives the complete picture.

/ Martin

Martin Nordholts wrote:

Yes this is correct. Before we added this logic it was a pain to work with the zoom; often when you zoomed out the image ended up completely offsetted out in a corner in the image window.

I am completely open to improving zoom however since I also have the feeling it is not working as perfect as it could, including the zoom logic where the pixel remains under cursor while zooming.

Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the mousewheel zoom to center on the mouse cursor while hitting + and - on the keyboard should zoom from the center...

Just my 0.02 EUR...

The most natural-feeling zoom tools I have used do something similar to this. Instead of centering on the mouse cursor, they zoom such that the pixel under the mouse cursor does not move. This makes the zoom feel very smooth, imho.

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Kurt Pruenner wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but I would expect the mousewheel zoom to center on the mouse cursor while hitting + and - on the keyboard should zoom from the center...

On Mon, 2009-05-18 at 18:04 +0200, gg wrote: [...]

It seems that there is an implicit assumption in the current behaviour that if the image can fit into the display window it absolutely must be centred.

The idea that the pixel under the mouse pointer should stay at the same position on the screen is very cinematic -- when you zoom in or out, you should always have such a point on the screen, or people call your film "Blair Witch" and issue warnings about motion sickness... :)

But it would be a lot clearer that this was happening if we actually had a cinematic zoom. Now, some of this is that I work on large images, but even on smaller ones, an example might be to draw tiles around the mouse pointer first (this would almost always be better than drawing them from the top, I suspect), and/or zooming the projection first & then filling in details.

I suppose an animation of a cross-hair cursor glowing for a moment would emphasis what was going on and might also help for things like a paste that happens off-screen (see another thread...) but might be too cutesy for gimp...

When the whole image fits in the viewport, because it's really tiny, e.g. under 1,000 pixels on a side, maybe there could be two zoom-out steps, 100% and 100%-centered?

Similarly, when the image is very large, but you zoomed out to, say, 5%, and it all fits in the window, at the point at which it would all fit, add a status message, "zoom out once more to centre image" ? And zooming out that time would not actually zoom out, but centre.

To help people who zoom out to look at the overall picture, then zoom in, maybe we could borrow a text editor concept of "marks" (some GUI programs have this as well, e.g. Bryce 3d has keys bound to a number of different views/zooms/etc) -- press `` to toggle between shrink-fit and current view, for example.

Liam