might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I'm in favor.

Eric P.

On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 17:00 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

I consider to change what GIMP uses the Space key for and would like to get some user feedback on this. Currently, pressing the Space key temporarily switches to the move tool. This is sometimes convenient but I am not sure if it is all that useful.

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

Hola Sven.
I was initially very excited about the GIMP's behaviour. But I found myself mostly sticking to swapping the active tool with the default shortcuts. Sounds like a great workflow speedup in theory, but I don't really use it :/

I see it as a good thing to use spacebar for panning, helping a lot of people transitioning to the free software tool. Two thumbs up.

cheers

Sven Neumann wrote:

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I agree that the space key should be reserved for something pretty amazingly common and useful. I suppose it's also likely that panning the image is a slightly more common temporary mode of action than moving a layer, regardless of what The Other program does, though we DO have a super-handy little single-click panning tool on the image window already, so overall I don't think it's a compelling win (or loss).

--Adam

Hi Sven

That's really a very good idea. It enables an artist to do image manipulation more comfortably. I am all for it.

Best regards

Asif ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:00:27 +0200 From: Sven Neumann
...................
..............................................................If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

Sven

Hi,
sven@gimp.org (2005-05-21 at 1700.27 +0200):

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it

Last tablets I tried (not tablet pc, but the input device ones) seem to have tip and two side buttons (so MB1, MB2 and MB3 as per X11 terms are avaliable). OTOH, I am talking about the typical brand of tablets, dunno other brands.

As is, it is just moving from MB2 to MB1+Space, so requires two hands and still moves the pointer. Only adventage I see is when there is no MB2 at all (single button devices without any option to simulate other buttons).

might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

So I wonder... are there other better uses? Alternate between two tools for example? Or would there be a way to make it configurable, so anyone can bind any function to it (I ask due the "only while pressed" vs "press & release", and the lack of "move view" tool)?

GSR

Hi,
adam@gimp.org (2005-05-22 at 1710.22 +0100):

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I agree that the space key should be reserved for something pretty amazingly common and useful. I suppose it's also likely that panning the image is a slightly more common temporary mode of action than moving a layer, regardless of what The Other program does, though we DO have a super-handy little single-click panning tool on the image window already, so overall I don't think it's a compelling win (or loss).

I have been thinking, and remember some people were saying tools were running out of mod keys. Why not reserve it for those cases? Tools could use shift, control, alt and space. Or is the any technical limitation about making mod+space a mod?

Space alone obviously not, but dunno if it would give us a single key, or another level. Still one mod more is a win, a family of them a bigger one, specially if it makes all the required operations to be based in one or two keys, never three.

GSR

Sven Neumann writes:

I consider to change what GIMP uses the Space key for and would like to get some user feedback on this. Currently, pressing the Space key temporarily switches to the move tool.

Spacebar to switch temporarily to move is awfully useful. I didn't know about it until this discussion, but I've often wanted something like that -- I'm forever switching between move and something else, for instance when I'm creating lots of different text layers and need to position each one. If you change spacebar to pan, I hope you'll consider investing some other key with this "temporary move tool" meaning. Now that I've known about it for a couple days I'm already sorry to have to give it up!

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse? (That would be understandable.) Or is this just because ... that other program does it that way, and its users are used to it?

...Akkana

Akkana Peck wrote:

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse? (That would be understandable.) Or is this just because ... that other program does it that way, and its users are used to it?

My laptop, and I suspect other laptops too, doesn't have a middle mouse button. Not that it matters that much, since I can attach a real mouse when I want to do serious graphic work.

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse?

i do not have - a tablet and a notebook

Jakub Friedl

Sven Neumann wrote:

Spacebar to switch temporarily to move is awfully useful. I didn't know about it until this discussion, but I've often wanted something like that

See, that is exactly my point. The feature is not discoverable and it might make sense to exchange it for something which is probably at least as useful but wider known.

I'm in the same boat in that I didn't "discover" the current space bar behavior and now that I know about it, I think it's great. The reason I didn't discover it is purely because I never thought to press the space bar at all. I've got no issue with changing the behavior of the space bar but the main point is I didn't know about the behavior associated with the space bar because I never thought to press the space bar, regardless of the functionality associated with it/

Peace...

Tom

Hello,

Why not use another key (or key combination) for that function ? Maybe it's not Photoshop's behavior, but Gimp's not really just a Photoshop's clone...

Pierre-Alexis. ______________

--- Sven Neumann a écrit:

Hi,

Akkana Peck writes:

Spacebar to switch temporarily to move is awfully

useful. I didn't

know about it until this discussion, but I've

often wanted something

like that

See, that is exactly my point. The feature is not discoverable and it
might make sense to exchange it for something which is probably at
least as useful but wider known.

I'm forever switching between move and something

else,

for instance when I'm creating lots of different

text layers and

need to position each one.

That's just a missing feature in the text tool. Of course the text
tool should allow you to move text layers.

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse

button? Maybe tablet

users who don't want to put down the stylus and

switch to a mouse?

(That would be understandable.) Or is this just

because ... that

other program does it that way, and its users are

used to it?

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key
with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse
buttons. But perhaps this needs actual user testing.

Sven

Tom Williams writes:

I'm in the same boat in that I didn't "discover" the current space bar behavior and now that I know about it, I think it's great. The reason I didn't discover it is purely because I never thought to press the space bar at all.

I don't even have that excuse. I press the spacebar all the time: I use it as a no-op to make that image active (so Layers and other dialogs will correspond to that image). I had dimly noticed that "something changes in gimp windows" when I pressed it, but I never thought to hold it down and really look at what was changing. My only excuse is that I think of space as an autorepeating character key, something I shouldn't hold down unless I want some discrete action to happen repeatedly.

If discoverability is the problem, might it help to make it one of the startup tips? That's probably worthwhile regardless of which behavior ends up being bound to spacebar; spacebar to pan is no more discoverable than spacebar to move (I'd be surprised if most people who use a spacebar panner in any other program discovered it on their own).

I bet there are lots of other tips like that which would make good startup tips. Is http://wiki.gimp.org/gimp/FortuneCookies a good place to collect such tips, or does that just reflect the current checked-in list? Would it be better to add tip suggestions as a patch in a bug?

...Akkana

From: Sven Neumann Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 02:14:44 +0200 To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Cc: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] use of the Space key

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse buttons. But perhaps this needs actual user testing.

Sven

What about giving us a configurable option to configure any one or both of these facilities?

From: Sven Neumann Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 02:14:44 +0200 To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Cc: gimp-developer@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: [Gimp-user] use of the Space key

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse buttons. But perhaps this needs actual user testing.

Sven

What about giving us a configurable option to configure any one or both of these facilities?

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse buttons.

agreed

Jakub Friedl