On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:32:45AM +0100, . wrote:

No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost entirely cluttered with this nonsense.

How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.

Am I delighted with it? Yes!

Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group.

Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

Dave Russell London

---end quoted text---

+100

Cheers,
Stephen, Toronto
My Google+ Profile | http://goo.gl/JbQsq

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:32:45 +0100 "." wrote:

How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing. Am I delighted with it? Yes!

Glad to hear you are.

Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group.

You are missing the point here, that now if a user opens and modifies a .jpeg picture, Save does not replace the original with the modified picture, but creates a modified picture in a different format, which is contrary to all software practice, except in some cases (like Audacity) where Save explicitely saves a "Project" and not the original file. (Note to self: suggest to Tsar Alexander he modifies menu entry from Save to Save Project)

And GIMP recognizes the difference, since it then complains that the picture has not been saved if you Export (to the original formai) then attempt to close the program.

Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.

Yes we do, but we also owe it to them to give some feedback on how we feel about the changes they make in the app.

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication ;-3)
Cheers,

Ron.

Any man who hates dogs and babies can't be all bad.
                                   -- Leo Rosten, on W.C. Fields
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

Hi all

I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset by some mails here

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:32:45AM +0100, . wrote:

No less than six digests were waiting to be read this morning, almost entirely cluttered with this nonsense.

How much do I pay for the Gimp? Nothing.

Am I delighted with it? Yes!

Does it require any effort to get used to using E and S ? No - a child would make less fuss than some of the posters to this group.

Thousands of us owe a debt of gratitude to all the developers.

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

Dave Russell London

---end quoted text---

+100

First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian developer, so not some casual user.

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour is.

Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the standard/default/expected behaviour.

It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries "save as gimp doc" and "save as original" and a config setting for the default shortcut binding.

I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem.

Norbert

On 06/15/2013 01:36 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication ;-3)

Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their old warty version of a measurement system :)

On 06/15/13 07:30, Ofnuts wrote:

On 06/15/2013 01:36 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication ;-3)

Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their old warty version of a measurement system :)

Actually they still use imperial measurements as well. The conversion over to metric wasn't 100% successful from what I hear.

Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL 
http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:18:37 -0500 "Joseph A. Nagy, Jr" wrote:

Well, at least went metric, they didn't remain overly attached to their old warty version of a measurement system :)

Actually they still use imperial measurements as well. The conversion over to metric wasn't 100% successful from what I hear.

They still use Miles on roads, and Pints in pubs...
Cheers,

Ron.

Nothing is always absolutely so.
                                   -- Theodore Sturgeon
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

On 06/15/2013 02:28 PM, Norbert Preining wrote:

Hi all

I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset by some mails here

First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian developer, so not some casual user.

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour is.

Of course a program does not need to follow the guide lines, but then there should be a clear indication that it is doing something else than the standard/default/expected behaviour.

It could all be easily avoided if there were two entries "save as gimp doc" and "save as original" and a config setting for the default shortcut binding.

I don't mind gimp devs pushing for xcf format, what I dislike is breaking of expected behaviour and, like above emails, ignorance of the problem.

Norbert

+10

Hi
This strange "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a professional environment.
A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user.

Maderios

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200 maderios wrote:

This strange "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a professional environment. A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user.

And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work.

But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile...
Cheers,

Ron.

Il faut se garder de donner un nom aux choses:
 Tant qu'elles n'en ont pas, elles n'existent pas, ou elles existent à peine.
                                                              -- Jean Dutourd
                                    
                   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

On 06/15/2013 04:38 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:57:57 +0200 maderios wrote:

This strange "save, save as" behaviour could not exist in a professional environment. A professional (and many amateurs) user know he has to save his work. I think Gimp-2.8 tries to do instead of the user that it should do himself. It looks like an other OS (not GNU/LINUX) philosophy : anticipate the desire of the user.

And, worse, Tsar Alexander refuse to allow users to choose how they work.

But thanks to Akkana, resistance is not futile...

In developers world, women are rare. Some links concerning "Linux geekette" Akkana Peck
http://www.shallowsky.com/software/
http://lanyrd.com/profile/akkakk/
http://lanyrd.com/2012/pycon/spckd/#link-hcgh http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Akkana_Peck http://gimpbook.com/
https://plus.google.com/112662956693744460184/posts

Maderios

Hi all

I not often write here, but I'm a regular user of gimp. But I slowly get upset by some mails here
First: I am myself developer of open source projects as well as Debian developer, so not some casual user.

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And
- opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour is.

I can't believe nobody's brought this up yet, but if you're doing this, you're doing it wrong. If you think this is a valid workflow of image editing (and anyone else who does this), then you should really educate yourself on image formats you're using.

There's another message by Helen, where she describes something that should strike terror into the hearts of anyone who has ever worked with image files.

My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit. I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now disappeared off my screen.
I open it again to make sure I am satisfied with it, mail it to her. She mails it back with the changes I've asked for, I review and either make changes or don't, and
start the circle again (export instead of save as, it disappears, I open it again for review, etc.)

Wow, just wow.

Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some "insignificant" information (which works well for photos, but ruins many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude.

Please, if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Norbert Preining wrote:

These bullying emails are just plain rubbish. Software should be written with the users in mind. And - opening a jpg file
- editing
- saving
should result in a saved version of yhe original file, because that is what practically all programs are doing, and what the user expectation, and natural behaviour i

Grue beat me to this, but this doesn't work for JPEG. If you have a text editor, you could create a document with say 1 header and 3 paragraphs. Then you could edit paragraph #1 a thousand times, save each time, and your header and other paragraphs remain identical.

However if you edit a portion of a JPEG a thousand times, and "save" a thousand times, the whole of the image is going to take some major punishment. In this case instead of "saving" you are really "reencoding". Would you consider your text document saved if random characters were transposed throughout?

Chris

On 06/15/2013 01:53 PM, Grue wrote:

Wow, just wow. Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some "insignificant" information (which works well for photos, but ruins many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude. Please, if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later.

Well? It seems for all the reasons this Save As... behavior has been established, it's not working. Culture and expectations will out.

Personally, I have gotten used to the change. It's still a bit of a "tick" with me but it reminds me the difference between a work file and a published output file... I remember it each and every time I edit an image. However... I don't feel any more professional than I did before. My workflow? Not quite as flowing as it is in other software which uses a consistent behavior. Inkscape, another program I use for image editing and creation, allows me to "Save as..." any supported image format just fine which is interesting because of the two programs, Inkscape would actually make more sense to have exhibit this behavior. And when I close the program afterward, I am prompted with:

''The file "drawing.png" was saved with a format (org.inkscape.output.svg.inkscape) that may cause data loss! Do you want to save this file as Inkscape SVG? [Close without saving] [Cancel] [Save as SVG]''

(This sort of reminds me of "Smoking causes cancer" labels.)

The reason I say the GiMP behavior is more suited to Inkscape is that when using a program like Inkscape, a user is using a variety of primitive tools to compose an image which requires many, many steps and manipulations. But also, Inkscape has export functions such as "save as copy" and "export bitmap." It allows me to do what I want to do, but then reminds me I might be making a big mistake if close the program without saving in the native format.

This approach, Inkscape's that is, actually comes closer to accomplishing the purpose described by GiMP's developers without enraging the the user.

Apologies all around... I realize this is a wasted effort... I've seen this conversation go on multiple times and I've even started and participated in one myself. But when I see an example of people doing what they want to do regardless of warnings and speed-bumps and preventative measures, it just goes to show you can't beat stupid and you can't force smart. A simple warning that "you may be screwing something up" is probably the best approach.

Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them. Now, in defense of the gallery operators, I am sending a small thumbnail so that they can ask for the print if they want it -- they are not actually using my
thumbnail for printing or showing. But one *still* should not have to keep re-opening a file because gimp will not let you keep it open after you save a change.

--
Grue (via www.gimpusers.com/forums)
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Helen wrote:

Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Helen wrote:

Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Are you kidding? When I export, it closes! If you know some way that I can keep my .png or .tif or .jpg open after saving it (aka exporting) in that format, please tell us how. It is the new GIMP that is forcing it to close!

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Helen Etters
using Linux, suse12.3

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Are you kidding?

Nope.

When I export, it closes!

It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export 2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 06/15/13 15:19, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Are you kidding?

Nope.

When I export, it closes!

It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export 2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

I'm with Alexandre on this (unfortunately), this is how GIMP works for me. I just do not like having to hit ctrl+e when ctrl+s and then you specify file type via extension was the default (and for many people, it seems, preferred) behavior.

Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
Original content CopyFree (F) under the OWL 
http://copyfree.org/licenses/owl/license.txt

On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, Jun 16, 2013 at 12:14 AM, Helen wrote:

Exactly! We should not have to keep opening these files! They should stay on my screen until I finish with them.

But noone's forcing you to close them.

Are you kidding?

Nope.

When I export, it closes!

It shouldn't and it never did so for me. In fact, I don't think it ever did that for anybody. I don't see a single report like yours.

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export 2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org
_______________________________________________

I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process. After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved.

Peace...

Tom

/When we dance, you have a way with me,
Stay with me... Sway with me.../

Tom Williams (tomdkat@comcast.net) wrote:

I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process. After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved.

However, the separate window only shows up when one is working in indexed mode. Which is not what you're doing when you started by opening a JPEG...

Not sure what is going on there.

Bye, Simon

simon@budig.de              http://simon.budig.de/

On 15.06.2013 22:21, Tom Williams wrote:

On 06/15/2013 01:19 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

There's something crazy going on with your computer and your copy of GIMP. What happens for just about everybody else is:

1. File > Export 2. Specify file name
3. Click 'Export'
4. Contonue working on the picture.

I'm thinking Helen is referring to the JPEG preview window that opens, during the JPEG export process. After the JPEG export is done, the preview window closes since the file's been saved.

That behavior isn't different to previous versions, though...

Regards,
Michael

On Sat, 2013-06-15 at 16:14 -0400, Helen wrote:

When I export, it closes!

The preview will close but the original image is still open.

If you use single-window-mode, GIMP then switches back to a random (or unpredictable) image, not the one you were working on, but it's still there.

My own workflow for www.fromoldbooks.org is usually 1. file->create->from scanner, scan an image 2. save (export) the image as imagename-raw.png (lossless format) 3. edit the image to clean up the scan (10 minutes to 3 hours) 4. save (export) the result to imagename-cleaned.png 5. scale down from print to Web size and export as jpeg, imagename-1x1.jpg
6. undo, scale down to a smaller size and export again 7. repeat for up to a dozen sizes
all without closing the GIMP.

It's complicated considerably if you have more than one layer, or a floating selection, but I almost always have only a single layer by the time I'm doing the final saves/exports.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

On 06/15/2013 07:53 PM, Grue wrote:

Wow, just wow. Here are the facts: every time you "save" your image as JPEG, you lose information. It is by design a lossy image format that uses an algorithm to conserve your disk space via throwing away some "insignificant" information (which works well for photos, but ruins many other types of images). Worse yet, if you edit a JPEG image and resave it, you lose even more information. This results in very noticeable artifacts in the image. And GIMP actually tries to prevent you from this destructive workflow, yet you keep doing it anyway, and you're complaining about GIMP instead of your own ineptitude. Please, if you work with images, learn about image formats and how they work. The eyes of people who look at your images will thank you later.

Well, not really... This is what everyone thinks/is told but in practice, if you only do local editing and save the image back with the exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the JPEG file in every editing cycle, so the image as a whole doesn't degrade after the two or three first editing sessions. I have a script somewhere that repeatedly edits and saves an image with ImageMagick to demonstrate this, This is is even used in image forensics: to find the edited spots in a JPEG image you have been given, save it again, then compare the two images. Chances are that the encoding of the edited parts hasn't "settled down" yet and will produce slightly different values when saved, so the two images will show minute differences in the edited places.

On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 00:52 +0200, Ofnuts wrote:

if you only do local editing and save the image back with the exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the JPEG file in every editing cycle,

This depends on the sorts of edits you do.

For example, changing contrast or levels globally, or running a sharpen filter, will often accentuate the original jpeg artifacts so that they in turn create new artifacts.

(that's why I mentioned levels, curves and sharpen explicitly in the post i made somewhere else in this thread).

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

On 06/17/2013 06:38 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Mon, 2013-06-17 at 00:52 +0200, Ofnuts wrote:

if you only do local editing and save the image back with the exact same JPEG quality settings, the "blocks" which no changed pixels very quickly end up producing the very same data as their source in the JPEG file in every editing cycle,

This depends on the sorts of edits you do.

For example, changing contrast or levels globally, or running a sharpen filter, will often accentuate the original jpeg artifacts so that they in turn create new artifacts.

(that's why I mentioned levels, curves and sharpen explicitly in the post i made somewhere else in this thread).

Yes, this is why I said "local" editing.

Hi Renaud,

On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI said:

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication

You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point first made to me by a Norwegian friend!)

Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

Nice web page
Is KompoZer still useful? I have BlueGriffon.

On Jun 17, 2013, at 9:02 AM, Greg Chapman wrote:

Hi Renaud,

On 15 Jun 13 12:36 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI said:

To the whingers - you are boring, get a life.

This is a bit rich, coming from the country where we hear they are still whingeing about Decimalization and Metrication

You must know by now we Brits are going metric inch by inch! (A point first made to me by a Norwegian friend!)

Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
List address: gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Mitja
----
http://www.redbubble.com/people/lumiwa