Von: Donald Miller

I resized two images, made a new page canvas, copied and pasted both, opened grid. I can only move one image, can't toggle to other. Layer stack commands are all grayed out, except "reverse layer order" which does nothing. Pg-up/dn keys do nothing. "Align" does nothing.

If you haven't created new layers from the floating selections you got after pasting, then you now have a still floating selection around. But this has always been that way, so it is not a new problem with an old method...

If this doesn't help and you think somethings else must be the cause, then describe what you're seeing in the layers dialog.

HTH, Michael

In GIMP every time you paste something into the image it becomes a "floating layer" by default. In order to switch to another layer you need to:

1 - Anchor the selection down (it becomes part of whatever layer was selected before you used the Paste command). (Layer > Anchor Selection or something) 2 - Convert it into a new layer. (Layer > New Layer / To New Layer)

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

Now, if you know in advance you are going to be making a new layer out of what you're pasting, you can save yourself time and headaches by selecting "Paste As > New Layer" from the Edit menu, instead of the normal Paste.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 14:17:01 -0700 From: damiller2@gmail.com
To: schumaml@gmx.de; gimp-user-list@gnome.org Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

Hello

I started with new file, created a new layer and pasted one half image, repeated with other half image. Still can't get from one layer to another. Layer> Stack > Reverse Layer Order
puts white over the subimages; repeat restores the color. I un-/re-installed gimp, no difference.

Last week, I actually was able to move among layers, selectively hide and reveal. I am mystified. Gimp is presently worthless to me.

Regards, Don Miller damiller2@gmail.com
====================================== Sunday, January 20, 2013, 1:21:41 PM, you wrote:

Hello

Seems that manual setup is same HTML as on web. Is there a searchable doc in a Windows format?

Regards,
Don Miller damiller2@gmail.com
====================================== Sunday, January 20, 2013, 1:18:07 PM, you wrote:

Hello

Update, I found and ran gimp-help-2-2.8.0-en-setup.exe but gimp HELP still only connects to web version.

Regards,
Don Miller damiller2@gmail.com
====================================== Sunday, January 20, 2013, 1:08:16 PM, you wrote:

Hello Michael

I meant new problem with method I previously used.

So how do I regain control of my image layers? Copy & paste is something I did a lot before abandoning photoshop CS2 for misbehavior.

On-line manual in HTML is not as friendly to searching as would a PDF or ebook version (which I have not found).

Regards,
Don Miller damiller2@gmail.com
====================================== Sunday, January 20, 2013, 12:44:26 PM, you wrote:

Von: Donald Miller

I resized two images, made a new page canvas, copied and pasted both, opened grid. I can only move one image, can't toggle to other. Layer stack commands are all grayed out, except "reverse layer order" which does nothing. Pg-up/dn keys do nothing. "Align" does nothing.

If you haven't created new layers from the floating selections you got after pasting, then you now have a still floating selection around. But this has always been that way, so it is not a new problem with an old method...

If this doesn't help and you think somethings else must be the cause, then describe what you're seeing in the layers dialog.

HTH,
Michael
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On 01/20/2013 03:21 PM, Donald Miller wrote:

Hello

Seems that manual setup is same HTML as on web. Is there a searchable doc in a Windows format?

Quick and dirty solution: Use google. Add this to the end of your search terms when looking for GIMP help files:

site:http://docs.gimp.org/2.8/en/

Local help solution: Go to Edit > Preferences > Help System, and change "Use the online version" to "Use a locally installed copy."

The layers question was already answered.

In re printing with the GIMP, that's one for somebody with the same version of MS operating system and the same brand and model family or printer to answer. Saving your image in any convenient format, and printing it with Irfanview, is a pretty much guaranteed solution:

http://www.irfanview.com/

Way back when, I always used to set up the GIMP as the default external editor for Irfanview: A very practical combination.

:o)

Steve

On 01/20/2013 04:30 PM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Now, if you know in advance you are going to be making a new layer out of what you're pasting, you can save yourself time and headaches by selecting "Paste As > New Layer" from the Edit menu, instead of the normal Paste.

Although if you do that, be aware that the new layer will be a rectangle containing the selection moved to the upper left corner of the canvas. If you want it to remain in place in the image, right-click on the floating layer and select To New Layer.

-- Burnie

Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 21:41:15 -0800 From: west@ieee.org
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

On 01/20/2013 04:30 PM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Now, if you know in advance you are going to be making a new layer out of what you're pasting, you can save yourself time and headaches by selecting "Paste As > New Layer" from the Edit menu, instead of the normal Paste.

Although if you do that, be aware that the new layer will be a rectangle containing the selection moved to the upper left corner of the canvas. If you want it to remain in place in the image, right-click on the floating layer and select To New Layer.

-- Burnie _______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

Sometimes I really miss the fact that GIMP has no "paste in place" command like Inkscape does. Feature request?

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

=

On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

How about automatically creating a layer group with the selection layer above a copy of the original layer?
This appears (at a quick glance) to work in nested layer groups as well. --

On 01/21/2013 12:57 AM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

Von: Richard Gitschlag

Sometimes I really miss the fact that GIMP has no "paste in place" command like Inkscape does. Feature request?

You should add a description of how this works in Inkscape, and how you expect this to be handled in GIMP - e.g. what is the "place" if you paste to an image of totally different size, at a different zoom level, ...

Regards, Michael

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Datum: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:57:56 +0100 Von: Ofnuts
An: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Betreff: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

The useful feature of anchoring those floating selections down to the active layer is what usually gets in the way of just removing them. any ideas for that?

Regards, Michael

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

Von: Richard Gitschlag

Sometimes I really miss the fact that GIMP has no "paste in place"

command

like Inkscape does. Feature request?

You should add a description of how this works in Inkscape, and how you expect this to be handled in GIMP - e.g. what is the "place" if you paste to an image of totally different size, at a different zoom level, ...

Some old discussion on this:
http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-developer/12672-gimp-ux-paste#message58351

I created a "paste into selection script" (scales the copied image to fit the current selection using default interpolation mode): http://pastebin.com/fKUxE8Ag

More useful (imoo), I also created a "paste as new layer centered" script which pastes the clipboard content as a new layer centered on the current selection , the current layer (if no selection), or the canvas if no active layer.

Either of these could just be keymapped to Ctrl+v. (The built in "Paste as New Layer" could be bound to ctrl+v as well, but I didn't like that it creates the new layer at 0,0 hence the script).

-Rob A.

In a nutshell, when the selection is copied it includes the (x,y) offset from the upper-left corner of the image canvas, and it utilizes this offset when pasting back into the image. Image zoom is irrelevant and so is canvas size (mostly).

For now, the quickest workaround we have to paste at a specific area of the image is "Paste Into" then "To New Layer" -- and what exactly the difference is between it and normal Paste I've still got to figure out.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 17:17:14 +0100 From: schumaml@gmx.de
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

Von: Richard Gitschlag

Sometimes I really miss the fact that GIMP has no "paste in place" command like Inkscape does. Feature request?

You should add a description of how this works in Inkscape, and how you expect this to be handled in GIMP - e.g. what is the "place" if you paste to an image of totally different size, at a different zoom level, ...

Regards, Michael
_______________________________________________ gimp-user-list mailing list
gimp-user-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

=

On 01/21/2013 03:57 AM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

If I recall correctly, "floats" existed before "layers" in the GIMP, as a mechanism for moving pasted-in content around before merging it into the image. Floats were not a problem for me when I was learning how to use the GIMP, and now I take them so much for granted that it's kind of tricky to think about the impact of doing away with them.

Floats enable and require the user to explicitly anchor pasted content somewhere, i.e. make a new layer for it, merge it down into an existing layer, or merge it down into a layer mask. Whether I would be OK with floats being done away with, would depend on the proposed mechanism for targeting where pasted content lands in the layer stack: A proposed replacement for floats would have to accomplish the same results in a smaller number of steps, or the same number of steps but in a way that is substantially easier for a beginner to understand and use.

Right now I can't think of a way to improve on the existing "floating layer" workflow.

:o)

Steve

On 01/21/2013 11:06 AM, Steve Kinney wrote:

On 01/21/2013 03:57 AM, Ofnuts wrote:

On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

If I recall correctly, "floats" existed before "layers" in the GIMP, as a mechanism for moving pasted-in content around before merging it into the image. Floats were not a problem for me when I was learning how to use the GIMP, and now I take them so much for granted that it's kind of tricky to think about the impact of doing away with them.

Floats enable and require the user to explicitly anchor pasted content somewhere, i.e. make a new layer for it, merge it down into an existing layer, or merge it down into a layer mask. Whether I would be OK with floats being done away with, would depend on the proposed mechanism for targeting where pasted content lands in the layer stack: A proposed replacement for floats would have to accomplish the same results in a smaller number of steps, or the same number of steps but in a way that is substantially easier for a beginner to understand and use.

Right now I can't think of a way to improve on the existing "floating layer" workflow.

In my experiment, I created a layer group and moved an image into it, and then: created a second-level layer sub-group within the group; moved my original picture into the group selected an area of the image in the subgroup copied / pasted
"To-New-Layer"ed it
moved the new layer into the newly created group. I supposed that the entire indented activity was a single operation activated by the copy/paste activity
The sub-group can be manipulated essentially the same as the float had been; then afterward the "anchor" command is replaced by "Merge Layer Group."

I think this might be "substantially easier for a beginner to understand and use"

-- Burnie

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:06:41 -0500 From: admin@pilobilus.net
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

Right now I can't think of a way to improve on the existing "floating layer" workflow.

I can -- perhaps not changing the actual functionality but the manner in which it is displayed in the layer list. For example, say my layer stack is:

- C - B
- A

Say I make/float/paste a selection using layer B. My layer stack now displays:

- Floating selection - C
- B
- A

Here's the problem: The floating selection is not at the "top" of the layer stack - it is actually between layers B (the source layer) and C (the layer above it). The layer stack SHOULD display:

- C - Floating selection
- B
- A

This makes it visually clear WHICH layer the float came from.

(Or, alternatively: )

- C - B
- - Floating selection
- A

Which is something of a group-like display, but again this makes clear which layer the float belongs to.

-- Stratadrake strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

:o)

Steve

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https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list

=

On 01/21/2013 03:10 PM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:06:41 -0500 From: admin@pilobilus.net
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

Right now I can't think of a way to improve on the existing "floating layer" workflow.

I can -- perhaps not changing the actual functionality but the manner in which it is displayed in the layer list. For example, say my layer stack is:

- C - B
- A

Say I make/float/paste a selection using layer B. My layer stack now displays:

- Floating selection - C
- B
- A

Here's the problem: The floating selection is not at the "top" of the layer stack - it is actually between layers B (the source layer) and C (the layer above it). The layer stack SHOULD display:

- C - Floating selection
- B
- A

This makes it visually clear WHICH layer the float came from.

(Or, alternatively: )

- C - B
- - Floating selection
- A

Which is something of a group-like display, but again this makes clear which layer the float belongs to.

This is substantially my experiment, Steve - It takes simply replacing "floating selection" by "create layer group with current layer and selection above it" but I confused the issue by responding to gimp-developer rather than gimp-user. What I suggested in the developer list was

"How about automatically creating a layer group with the selection layer above a copy of the original layer?
This appears (at a quick glance) to work in nested layer groups as well. -- "

-- Burnie

On 01/21/2013 06:54 PM, bgw wrote:

On 01/21/2013 03:10 PM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

[...]

I can -- perhaps not changing the actual functionality but the manner in which it is displayed in the layer list. For example, say my layer stack is:

- C
- B
- A

Say I make/float/paste a selection using layer B. My layer stack now displays:

- Floating selection - C
- B
- A

Here's the problem: The floating selection is not at the "top" of the layer stack - it is actually between layers B (the source layer) and C (the layer above it). The layer stack SHOULD display:

- C - Floating selection
- B
- A

This makes it visually clear WHICH layer the float came from.

(Or, alternatively: )

- C - B
- - Floating selection
- A

Which is something of a group-like display, but again this makes clear which layer the float belongs to.

I can't quite wrap my head around that. Floats "belong to" whatever layer or mask was current when the clipboard content was pasted in. You can only do two things with a float: Make it a new layer by using the 'add layer' command, or use the 'anchor' command to merge it down into whatever layer or mask was already selected when the float was pasted into the image.

I thought this might have changed with the new layer groups feature, but I just did some tests and it looks like that's not the case: Doing this operation with the source and destination of copied content in different layer groups works the same as when there are no groups.

If you want to add content from the clipboard as a new layer at any specified location in the layer stack, the workflow would be:

1. Select and copy the content you want to duplicate.

2. Select the layer you want the float to be above, create a new empty layer (Ctrl+Shift+n, Enter). A new transparent layer appears above the previously selected layer and becomes the currently selected layer. (Or better, Ctrl+Shift+n, type a name then Enter.)

3. Paste (Ctrl+v) and anchor (Ctrl+h). A float will appear and merge into the new layer you just created.

I don't understand the reason for inserting a float anywhere but at the top of the layers list, because it's really just a transitional place holder. The float enables the user to tweak the position, scale and geometry of a copied and pasted selection before merging it into its destination layer, but that's the only use I see for it. Others may know more things to do with floats.

:o)

Steve

Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 20:21:43 -0500 From: admin@pilobilus.net
To: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods

Floats "belong to" whatever layer or mask was current when the clipboard content was pasted in. You can only do two things with a float: Make it a new layer by using the 'add layer' command, or use the 'anchor' command to merge it down into whatever layer or mask was already selected when the float was pasted into the image.

That
is correct, but because the Layers dialog displays the float at the top of the entire layer stack there is no visual indication in the dialog of which layer it belongs to. If we merely changed the display of the dialog so that the float is always displayed just above its source layer (actual functionality unaffected), this would make it more intuitive to the user.

-- Stratadrake
strata_ranger@hotmail.com
--------------------
Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

=

On Mon, 2013-01-21 at 20:21 -0500, Steve Kinney wrote: [...]

You can only do two things with a float: Make it a new layer by using the 'add layer' command, or use the 'anchor' command to merge it down into whatever layer or mask was already selected when the float was pasted into the image.

I'm sure you know this, but for others I'll add that this is not the whole picture - there's lots more that you can do with a floating selection:
. erase parts of it (it has an alpha channel) . move it
. draw on it
. use levels/curves
. smile upon it lovingly :-)

Of course, you can do these things with a layer too.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/
Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml

On 01/22/13 07:59, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

Floats "belong to" whatever layer or mask was current when the clipboard content was pasted in. You can only do two things with a float: Make it a new layer by using the 'add layer' command, or use the 'anchor' command to merge it down into whatever layer or mask was already selected when the float was pasted into the image.

That is correct, but because the Layers dialog displays the float at the top of the entire layer stack there is no visual indication in the dialog of which layer it belongs to. If we merely changed the display of the dialog so that the float is always displayed just above its source layer (actual functionality unaffected), this would make it more intuitive to the user.

While voting doesn't count ;-), I would second that as a suggestion. I've meant to make the same comment before.

Gary

On 01/22/2013 11:19 AM, Donald Miller wrote:

Hello Experts

Because I started this thread, I should comment.

I once spent a year of intense image editing in photoshop. Now I only occasionally use PS or GIMP, so esoteric capabilities are far less important than ease of getting back into harness. Simply combining image snippets is now easier in PS.

Keep all the features you want, but include easy startup for folks who are not, nor want to be, experts in the software.

I can see where you're coming from: How much can I do with image files today, without a substantial learning curve? It's no surprise that a commercial product may serve this need better than the GIMP in many cases; it pays to meet this need, in the most literal sense of cash on the barrel head.

"Ease of use" can have two meanings:

1) Easy to figure out how to do a range of common, practical image editing tasks. A substantial part of the Photoshop user base is looking for this and only this, and supporting them makes Adobe more than enough money to pay their developers to make supporting these users a "prime directive" in their design paradigm.

2) Easy to do complex tasks including ones that the program's developers did not anticipate, through access to flexible modular tools and functions. A substantial part of the GIMP user base is looking for this, which is fortunate because the GIMP project does not have a budget to support "make it easier for beginners" to the extent that Adobe does.

Photoshop experts can do complex tasks "any way they want" to get the results they are after; GIMP beginners can learn to do all the most important photo editing basics in a few hours. But the style and design paradigm of these commercial & Free programs is different, and these differences matter more to casual users than "hard core image grinders" who spend whole workdays doing horrible things to pixels.

Thing about the GIMP is, it's Free Software. That does not mean you can't charge money for it. If someone wanted to take the GIMP and rebuild it to for increased appeal to casual users, they could sell their remixed version as a commercial product. If Adobe was not such a dominant player in the market, this would have happened already.

:o)

Steve

On 01/21/2013 05:19 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

-------- Original-Nachricht --------

Datum: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:57:56 +0100 Von: Ofnuts
An: gimp-user-list@gnome.org
Betreff: Re: [Gimp-user] layers, new problem with old methods On 01/21/2013 01:30 AM, Richard Gitschlag wrote:

As GIMP concepts go, floating selections have always existed in GIMP and they really are something that needs to be killed off with fire because of how big a stumbling block they are to new users.

*applauds*

The useful feature of anchoring those floating selections down to the active layer is what usually gets in the way of just removing them. any ideas for that?

The only difference I see betwen "Paste to floating selection/Anchor" and "Paste as new layer/Merge" is that the former "remembers" the active *drawable* when the paste happened and use that for the anchor... but I don't find this very useful in my daily Gimp usage.... except when pasting to channels.