On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Steve VanSlyck wrote:

My biggest frustration with GIMP is the complete lack of a general object selection tool. Not having an "arrow" tool is counter intuitive to the way we've been taught since the Faraday saw the first semiconductor claw its way into visibility in 1833.

My biggest frustration is that _I_ haven't been studying bitmap graphics tools since 1833, you lucky bugger! I envy, envy, envy you!

The only reason I don't commit suicide out of being jealous is because I know difference between vector graphics and bitmap graphics and therefore I can use Inkscape for dealing with objects and you can't :-) Oh, wait -- you can. Just try it :-)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 06/21/2010 05:16 PM, Steve VanSlyck wrote:

My biggest frustration with GIMP is the complete lack of a general object selection tool. Not having an "arrow" tool is counter intuitive to the way we've been taught since the Faraday saw the first semiconductor claw its way into visibility in 1833.

There is a specification for such a tool: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Transformation_tool_specification

Someone just needs to write the code. We won't have time to do that for 2.8 though.

/ Martin

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 6:50 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote:

On 06/21/2010 05:16 PM, Steve VanSlyck wrote:

My biggest frustration with GIMP is the complete lack of a general object selection tool. Not having an "arrow" tool is counter intuitive to the way we've been taught since the Faraday saw the first semiconductor claw its way into visibility in 1833.

There is a specification for such a tool: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Transformation_tool_specification

Someone just needs to write the code. We won't have time to do that for 2.8 though.

Oh no! Now I'm gonna kill myself! :))))

Hey Alexandre,

hopefully this doesn't compromise your health, but an object picker has already been proposed (which is my fault) [1], and for good reason:

If you take non-destructive editing serious, you inevitably end up with a finer granularity of adjustability than with the current scheme -- hence objects [2]. This is not my fault, but GEGL's. Should also produce a little relief for those poor little abused layers ;-)

Nobody is allowed to die until GIMP is finished! - yahvuu

[1] http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/2009/06/object-picker.html [2] http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/2009/06/objects-within-layers.html

On Mon, 21 Jun 2010 22:03:54 +0200 yahvuu wrote:

Nobody is allowed to die until GIMP is finished!

and it natively uses all those free 8bf plugins!

- Richard

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 10:03 PM, yahvuu wrote:

Nobody is allowed to die until GIMP is finished!

Unless it's of old age! :D (No offence, developers.)

On 6/22/10, R Kimber wrote:

Nobody is allowed to die until GIMP is finished!

and it natively uses all those free 8bf plugins!

Speaking of which, if we manage to finally get Adobe to publish PSD spec (they promised to do it soon), maybe we can get them to publish plug-ins spec. Not that it will come bundled with a free developer to do all the dirty job in PSPI, mind you :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

Hey Alexandre,

hopefully this doesn't compromise your health, but an object picker has already been proposed (which is my fault) [1], and for good reason:

If you take non-destructive editing serious, you inevitably end up with a finer granularity of adjustability than with the current scheme -- hence objects [2]. This is not my fault, but GEGL's. Should also produce a little relief for those poor little abused layers ;-)

Well, it looks like slightly improved existing Move tool to me :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

Hey Alexandre,

hopefully this doesn't compromise your health, but an object picker has already been proposed (which is my fault) [1], and for good reason:

If you take non-destructive editing serious, you inevitably end up with a finer granularity of adjustability than with the current scheme -- hence objects  [2]. This is not my fault, but GEGL's. Should also produce a little relief for those poor little abused layers ;-)

Well, it looks like slightly improved existing Move tool to me :)

I'd add it wouldn't make a lot of sense without vastly improved vector paths tool. Otherwise it's much better and simpler to have layer groups and "objects" on different layers.

On 22.06.2010 00:30, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Well, it looks like slightly improved existing Move tool to me :)

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog. Somewhat paradoxically, this would be my favourite tool for color adjustments.

regards, yahvuu

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog.

In the times of transformation tools to be merged and some selection tools to be merged as well a tool for just selection sounds a bit limiting, don't you think? :)

Somewhat paradoxically, this would be my favourite tool for color adjustments.

For what color adjustments precisely?

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 22.06.2010 18:42, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog.

In the times of transformation tools to be merged and some selection tools to be merged as well a tool for just selection sounds a bit limiting, don't you think? :)

not limiting, but liberating ;)
An object picker nicely complements the unified transformation tool. Using the latter to select objects is like taking the sledgehammer to crack a nut: it takes quite some attention to select without accidentally moving things and additionally, the transform tool's handle will obscure parts of the target.

Somewhat paradoxically, this would be my favourite tool for color adjustments.

For what color adjustments precisely?

anything from the 'Color' menu as well as filters. An object picker might also be regarded as a 'Menu target selection tool'.

You are right though, that peter is striving hard to cut down the tool count... - yahvuu

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:05 PM, yahvuu wrote:

On 22.06.2010 18:42, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/22/10, yahvuu  wrote:

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog.

In the times of transformation tools to be merged and some selection tools to be merged as well a tool for just selection sounds a bit limiting, don't you think? :)

not limiting, but liberating ;)
An object picker nicely complements the unified transformation tool. Using the latter to select objects is like taking the sledgehammer to crack a nut: it takes quite some attention to select without accidentally moving things and additionally, the transform tool's handle will obscure parts of the target.

Don't you think it'd be much better if tools that work on object would simply do the selection if you, say Alt-click or Ctrl-click an object with it? Also, a Photoshop-like approach of Alt-right-clicking to open a menu of all objects/layers that are below the cursor. You don't need a tool dedicated to the purpose.

On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 17:55 +0200, yahvuu wrote:

On 22.06.2010 00:30, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Well, it looks like slightly improved existing Move tool to me :)

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog. Somewhat paradoxically, this would be my favourite tool for color adjustments.

And why does the Move tool not work for you then? It allows you to select a layer simply by clicking into the image. Perhaps you missed the "Set layer or path as active" option in the Preferences dialog?

Sven

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

In the times of transformation tools to be merged and some selection tools to be merged as well a tool for just selection sounds a bit limiting, don't you think? :)

not limiting, but liberating ;)
An object picker nicely complements the unified transformation tool. Using the latter to select objects is like taking the sledgehammer to crack a nut:

Did anybody suggest that? :)

And again, why don't you just use the Move tool? It works exactly like the picker and it does *not* move anything until you tell it to.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 22.06.2010 20:28, Sven Neumann wrote:

On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 17:55 +0200, yahvuu wrote:

On 22.06.2010 00:30, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Well, it looks like slightly improved existing Move tool to me :)

Actually, i was thinking of a pure object selection tool without any manipulation functionality. Just to choose the current paint context without obscuring it, and without having to resort to the layers dialog. Somewhat paradoxically, this would be my favourite tool for color adjustments.

And why does the Move tool not work for you then? It allows you to select a layer simply by clicking into the image. Perhaps you missed the "Set layer or path as active" option in the Preferences dialog?

No, the problem with the move tool is that it requires attention to select a layer without accidentally moving it. You really have to stop the mouse and keep it fixed while clicking. Or did i miss some other option?

regards, yahvuu

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:08 PM, yahvuu wrote:

No, the problem with the move tool is that it requires attention to select a layer without accidentally moving it. You really have to stop the mouse and keep it fixed while clicking. Or did i miss some other option?

I use Gimp with a tablet. And you know how tablets are. There's no way you can stop the cursor in place. But the move tool still doesn't accidentally move stuff around for me. And I don't think I've got some serious mouse-fu...

On 22.06.2010 21:12, Branko Vukelic wrote:

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:08 PM, yahvuu wrote:

No, the problem with the move tool is that it requires attention to select a layer without accidentally moving it. You really have to stop the mouse and keep it fixed while clicking. Or did i miss some other option?

I use Gimp with a tablet. And you know how tablets are. There's no way you can stop the cursor in place. But the move tool still doesn't accidentally move stuff around for me. And I don't think I've got some serious mouse-fu...

well, possibly it's just me (and i'm not too fond of mice, anyway). I actually trained myself to activate the rectangle selection tool while doing color adjustments -- after struggling with a serious of images which contained miraculously slightly off-moved layers...

regards, yahvuu

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:23 PM, yahvuu wrote:

well, possibly it's just me (and i'm not too fond of mice, anyway). I actually trained myself to activate the rectangle selection tool while doing color adjustments -- after struggling with a serious of images which contained miraculously slightly off-moved layers...

Wasn't it easier to just use the layers palette?

On 22.06.2010 21:26, Branko Vukelic wrote:

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:23 PM, yahvuu wrote:

well, possibly it's just me (and i'm not too fond of mice, anyway). I actually trained myself to activate the rectangle selection tool while doing color adjustments -- after struggling with a serious of images which contained miraculously slightly off-moved layers...

Wasn't it easier to just use the layers palette?

thanks, but i refuse to select layers by their thumbnails in the layers dialog, when i can just click them right there in image! .-)

With one hand on the keyboard, tools can be switched quite fast..

thanks anyway, yahvuu

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

And why does the Move tool not work for you then? It allows you to select a layer simply by clicking into the image. Perhaps you missed the "Set layer or path as active" option in the Preferences dialog?

No, the problem with the move tool is that it requires attention to select a layer without accidentally moving it.

There is no such problem. Look at the tool's options palette. The default mode is to select, not move.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

thanks, but i refuse to select layers by their thumbnails in the layers dialog, when i can just click them right there in image! .-)

That is, you refuse to work on images with layers completely overlapping other layers? :)

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:46 PM, yahvuu wrote:

On 22.06.2010 21:26, Branko Vukelic wrote:

Wasn't it easier to just use the layers palette?

thanks, but i refuse to select layers by their thumbnails in the layers dialog,

You can disable the dispay of thumbnails. :))))

when i can just click them right there in image!  .-)

With the... move tool. :)

On 22.06.2010 21:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

And why does the Move tool not work for you then? It allows you to select a layer simply by clicking into the image. Perhaps you missed the "Set layer or path as active" option in the Preferences dialog?

No, the problem with the move tool is that it requires attention to select a layer without accidentally moving it.

There is no such problem. Look at the tool's options palette. The default mode is to select, not move.

that gives hope, it's just that i can't reproduce...

The active options reads "Pick a layer or guide", but when i start dragging, the freshly picked layer gets moved.

The Preferences option given by Sven determines wether a picked and or moved layer will be activated after the operation but doesn't change anything else. At least that's the behaviour i'm used too (and just checked).

now i'm really astonished, yahvuu

(running git master from last week on kubuntu, in case that matters...)

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 9:59 PM, yahvuu wrote:

The active options reads "Pick a layer or guide", but when i start dragging, the freshly picked layer gets moved.

Don't drag. That's the whole point. I've done some crude testing just now, and you have to move the mouse like you really mean it in order to have the drag registered. So your mouse might be too fast or something or too low-resolution. Try to lower the speed of your mouse a bit and see if that helps.

On 22.06.2010 21:50, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/22/10, yahvuu wrote:

thanks, but i refuse to select layers by their thumbnails in the layers dialog, when i can just click them right there in image! .-)

That is, you refuse to work on images with layers completely overlapping other layers? :)

quoting myself:
>> when i *can* just click them right there in image!

as a sidenode, it's indeed an interesting question why completely overlapping layers get stacked. Probably quite some cases of 'layer abuse' can be found in such images.

But let's get this thread closed gracefully :_)

regards, yahvuu

On 6/23/10, yahvuu wrote:

as a sidenode, it's indeed an interesting question why completely overlapping layers get stacked. Probably quite some cases of 'layer abuse' can be found in such images.

Of for god's sake, blending modes weren't invented for nothing :)

But let's get this thread closed gracefully :_)

:)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On 6/23/10, yahvuu wrote:

as a sidenode, it's indeed an interesting question why completely overlapping layers get stacked. Probably quite some cases of 'layer abuse' can be found in such images.

Of for god's sake, blending modes weren't invented for nothing :)

Or layer masks.