On 1/18/2010 8:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:

I top post.

I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.

Bob

The problem with top posting, a problem no one seems to understand despite it being so simple, is that top-posting BREAKS THE NORMAL READING BEHAVIOR OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET! We don't read from bottom to top, it's top to bottom.

With top posting you read the solution before you ever learn what the problem was. Also, not editing out information you aren't directly responding to wastes bandwidth (whether or not broadband penetration is high in your country (US is ranked 17th for broadband penetration) is of no concern). It wastes bandwidth and takes up extra, unnecessary room on a users computer or in their mail account.

Don't top post, bottom posting is much better, and posting your replies directly UNDER the issue you are responding to is best, especially when coupled with judicious snipping of unrelated (that is, unrelated to your reply of the issue in concern) errata.

I cannot respond to the issue under discussion when I do not know what exactly you are responding to! So to summarize:

* Don't top post * Snip unrelated errata from the rest of the post.

Ohhh the horror....

Programmer In Training wrote:

On 1/18/2010 8:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:

I top post.

I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.

Bob

The problem with top posting, a problem no one seems to understand despite it being so simple, is that top-posting BREAKS THE NORMAL READING BEHAVIOR OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET! We don't read from bottom to top, it's top to bottom.

With top posting you read the solution before you ever learn what the problem was. Also, not editing out information you aren't directly responding to wastes bandwidth (whether or not broadband penetration is high in your country (US is ranked 17th for broadband penetration) is of no concern). It wastes bandwidth and takes up extra, unnecessary room on a users computer or in their mail account.

Don't top post, bottom posting is much better, and posting your replies directly UNDER the issue you are responding to is best, especially when coupled with judicious snipping of unrelated (that is, unrelated to your reply of the issue in concern) errata.

I cannot respond to the issue under discussion when I do not know what exactly you are responding to! So to summarize:

* Don't top post * Snip unrelated errata from the rest of the post.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

2010/1/18 Ken Warner :

Ohhh the horror....

And here you have illustrated that many top-posters do so just to spite people. I don't need to quote Voltaire to illustrate what that means.

Dear All,
I have been off sick the last 2 weeks with even more sick children. I look forward to reading this mailing list.....usually...!!

I am a "newbie" and am learning a lot from the many courteous and generous people who answer questions and discuss issues. Particular thanks to the JPEG discussion contributors recently! Now that was how this list should work!

Let's all just take the recent flare up as a sign of great passion we all have for such a worthwhile project as GIMP. Perhaps this is a timely reminder to review our local email etiquette and stay patient with the global and cultural melting pot that is the world of GIMP.

My first request would be that all personal replies be sent to the person concerned only and not to the main list.

Take care all....you are all doing great work!

Michaela "the newbie" PS Quote of the day "When reason and emotion meet, reason always loses".

-----Original Message----- From: gimp-user-bounces@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [mailto:gimp-user-bounces@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert L Cochran
Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2010 2:17 AM To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

I fix computers for a large number of people and a lot of these are interested in using Photoshop or lighter-weight versions of the same, but they want all the hard work of "fixing up" a photo to be done for them instantly in software and they do not want a learning curve with this. They want a magic solution. Let the computer and the software do the heavy lifting is their motto.

With some of these people -- the ones who are more willing to learn new stuff -- I suggest they use Gimp. I download the Windows version for them and install it and make sure that they have Gimp help, too. I also recommend they buy Akkana Peck's book. I think she wrote the book in a very helpful spirit using a format, and with examples, that are exactly right for many of my customers.

But I never suggest that these same customers join this mailing list. If I do, most or all of them will instantly be burned at stake for the crime of their posting styles. These are often older retired people who are very sensitive and innocent. And they will not be able to accept being lectured for their posting styles. The customer may then associate their treatment on this list with me as a service provider, and they might just think of me as showing poor manners. I do not want to take that risk, because I sell my services. I go to these people's homes, and often meet their family members, and they are just ordinary people on limited budgets who want to use their computers and a concept that a computer can think for them.

I notice that the commercial product forums don't have this issue very much -- other list users don't flame based on posting styles, and the list moderators try hard to get the question being asked answered. They really do welcome new users and beginners. They really want use of their product to expand. A user forum for a commercial, paid product is often a much more pleasant experience for the user for that reason.

This very thing is one of the biggest roadblocks I see with adoption of open source software. Given the choice of a user forum for a paid product that treats the customer with respect and courtesy, and a similar forum for open source software that often severely punishes participation if you don't conform to a set of stylistic conventions, where do you think the customer is going to head? That's right, the paid product and the courtesy and respect.

In the same way, suppose a customer is given the choice of a polite, respectful, smiling me as a technician and a different technician who makes often rude and biting remarks and requires conformity to a particular style. Which technician is likely to make more money? Me. The other tech can stay rude, and without business, too.

Increasing your product adoption is all about providing top service and support to go with it -- and with a smile.

Bob

On 01/18/2010 09:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:

I top post.

I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.

Bob

On 01/17/2010 11:13 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting, writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting? I see it on the gimp, and on other lists all the time.

Beginners don't know what top posting is. They don't understand that there's no business to bitch too about open source software. They don't understand how few people keep open software going. They're completely ignorant about our culture. They don't know how happy people will be if they write intelligent bugs, or offer to make documentation better. They don't understand that the people providing support for them are potentially them.

I guess the point is that it's easy to be annoyed by an ignorant beginner, (definitely speaking from experience), and they make themselves even more annoying by top posting when responding to messages, not knowing that it looks like they are deliberately making it harder to follow the conversation. If we kindly educate them instead of attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some of them to useful human beings.

I really like the way Sven invites people to contribute. For people not used to open source it's startling, and sometimes his invitation to be part of the solution is mistaken for an unwillingness to help. They've got this strange sense of learned helplessness. Even though few of those invited will ever contribute, some do, and some of those who don't contribute right away, have been started thinking about it by Sven and eventually will contribute. On the lilypond list, it's Graham the curmudgeon that keeps inviting people. It works.

If instead we attack them, we make of ourselves boors, and drive away people that might have been of great help eventually. Some of those driven away are lurkers not even involved in the communication. I know that some have more patience than others, but if you can't stand beginners acting like beginners, it's only necessary to ignore them. One of my favorite proverbs is, "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding", or the more modern proverb "Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt";)

People that are going to insist on being idiots go away pretty quickly if ignored. I know people that have been around for years already know all this, but there might be one or two on this list who need a gentle reminder.

Best regards,

Patrick

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:09:22AM -0800, Ken Warner wrote:

Ohhh the horror....

Please,
* Do not top post
* Cut unrelated text from the rest of your post.

I find it annoyng, and I see that I am not alone.

Please.

Op 18-01-10 19:01, Programmer In Training schreef:

On 1/18/2010 8:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:

I top post.

I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.

Bob

The problem with top posting, a problem no one seems to understand despite it being so simple, is that top-posting BREAKS THE NORMAL READING BEHAVIOR OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET! We don't read from bottom to top, it's top to bottom.

With top posting you read the solution before you ever learn what the problem was. Also, not editing out information you aren't directly responding to wastes bandwidth (whether or not broadband penetration is high in your country (US is ranked 17th for broadband penetration) is of no concern). It wastes bandwidth and takes up extra, unnecessary room on a users computer or in their mail account.

I always try to adhere to nettiquette standards, so I will try not to top-post. But I always completely disagree with the reasons given for it. Of course, if someone reads a complete thread at once, the argument given mostly is correct: you read the original post first, and the following posts after that in sequence. So than top-posting makes clumsy reading indeed.
But that' s not how at least *I* read messages on the many mailing lists I follow. When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest... Same goes for snail mail: all the letters that came in yesterday and before are on a stack already, and the new letters that come in today go on top of that.
So not for every single human on the planet top-posting breaks the normal reading behaviour (unless, of course, I'm not considered a human being on this planet :-))
Again, I will adhere to nettiquette, but I felt I should give some counter-arguments.

By the way, the GIMP is a great program!

regards, Jogchum Reitsma

But that' s not how at least *I* read messages on the many mailing lists I follow. When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest...

Ditto.

On 1/19/2010 2:02 PM, Elwin Estle wrote:

But that' s not how at least *I* read messages on the many mailing lists I follow. When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest...

Ditto.

That's where judicious snipping of previous emails and replying directly underneath the points your addressing is ideal.

Top-posting = bad and goes against the way you read (and sorry, while I do read every email in a topic I'm following, I don't remember what was said from one day to the next). Bottom-posting isn't much better, but it follows the NORMAL flow of reading. Email is just like any other text-based communication.

Last time I'm posting on the subject. Lets go help some folks.

* Jogchum Reitsma [01-19-10 13:14]:

When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest... Same goes for snail mail: all the letters that came in yesterday and before are on a stack already, and the new letters that come in today go on top of that. So not for every single human on the planet top-posting breaks the normal reading behaviour (unless, of course, I'm not considered a human being on this planet :-))

I agree completely, but. The failure is not from posting below, but from not trimming irrelevant information when posting. If *only* that which is required to put your post into context is quoted, the problem is gone.

Again, I will adhere to nettiquette, but I felt I should give some counter-arguments.

Some small degree of intelligence *is* required when carrying on a conversation along with some consideration. Bottom posting is not set in concrete, it is often better to intermix comments and quoting as above. And, if my answers had appeared above rather than intermixed, the substance of my comments would not be as clear.

It is much more considerate to compose your answers in a manner to impose as little as possible on your intended audience than to make him wade thru a lot of trash to try and determine your meaning and to possible mis-understand it completely.

Top-posting = bad and goes against the way you read

Oh here we go...

Time to add my 2 cents worth.

I always top post. There is nothing wrong with it and there is nothing wrong with bottom posting. Its a preference. I have no idea where the top=bad and bottom=good came from. This was certainly not present in Email discourse that I was party to 15 years ago, and neither when I started using Email, which would have been in 1988. The first time I was berated for top posting was sometime in 1998, and I was somewhat surprised.

I am amazed that it is a problem, and I don't know why it is. Top posting, IMO, is logical. It allows the recipient to immediately read the reply instead of scrolling down to the bottom of the Email: The recipient does not have to read the entire thread, because he is already involved with the discussion and requires the current comment. One could argue that when achieved, it is easier to read from the top down to the final note at the bottom, but as a quick form of communication, especially on a mailing list and also in an environment where we want to save a little time, its a pain in the arse.

I propose, that someone creates a new project that reads mailing list archives, identifies those that contain top-posting discourse, and then rearrange the offending archive into a bottom posting archive. All we need is someone with spare time, and a computer!

However, I don't care whether someone uses top or bottom posting.

[Yes, I know that someone will read the above and say, 'well you wrote that you don't have a preference, and later you state that bottom posting is a pain in the arse.' Well, there you go!]

Now, shall we take this discussion to private Email and discuss it there instead of on a GIMP mailing list. Please don't Cc me into it ;)

Best wishes,s

Programmer In Training wrote:

On 1/19/2010 2:02 PM, Elwin Estle wrote:

But that' s not how at least *I* read messages on the many mailing lists I follow. When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest...

Ditto.

That's where judicious snipping of previous emails and replying directly underneath the points your addressing is ideal.

Top-posting = bad and goes against the way you read (and sorry, while I do read every email in a topic I'm following, I don't remember what was said from one day to the next). Bottom-posting isn't much better, but it follows the NORMAL flow of reading. Email is just like any other text-based communication.

Last time I'm posting on the subject. Lets go help some folks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you completely. It's amazing to me that anyone would even be concerned enough to have an opinion about the issue to make an unequivocal statement about it.

Such is our age of hyper-outrage....

J4 wrote:

Top-posting = bad and goes against the way you read

Oh here we go...

Time to add my 2 cents worth.

I always top post. There is nothing wrong with it and there is nothing wrong with bottom posting. Its a preference. I have no idea where the top=bad and bottom=good came from. This was certainly not present in Email discourse that I was party to 15 years ago, and neither when I started using Email, which would have been in 1988. The first time I was berated for top posting was sometime in 1998, and I was somewhat surprised.

I am amazed that it is a problem, and I don't know why it is. Top posting, IMO, is logical. It allows the recipient to immediately read the reply instead of scrolling down to the bottom of the Email: The recipient does not have to read the entire thread, because he is already involved with the discussion and requires the current comment. One could argue that when achieved, it is easier to read from the top down to the final note at the bottom, but as a quick form of communication, especially on a mailing list and also in an environment where we want to save a little time, its a pain in the arse.

I propose, that someone creates a new project that reads mailing list archives, identifies those that contain top-posting discourse, and then rearrange the offending archive into a bottom posting archive. All we need is someone with spare time, and a computer!

However, I don't care whether someone uses top or bottom posting.

[Yes, I know that someone will read the above and say, 'well you wrote that you don't have a preference, and later you state that bottom posting is a pain in the arse.' Well, there you go!]

Now, shall we take this discussion to private Email and discuss it there instead of on a GIMP mailing list. Please don't Cc me into it ;)

Best wishes,s

Programmer In Training wrote:

On 1/19/2010 2:02 PM, Elwin Estle wrote:

But that' s not how at least *I* read messages on the many mailing lists I follow. When new postings to an existing thread arrive in my mailbox, I have read the postings prior to that post already earlier, so I don' t have to read them again. For me, scrolling down all the previous postings is a waste of time and energy. And frustrating, to be honest...

Ditto.

That's where judicious snipping of previous emails and replying directly underneath the points your addressing is ideal.

Top-posting = bad and goes against the way you read (and sorry, while I do read every email in a topic I'm following, I don't remember what was said from one day to the next). Bottom-posting isn't much better, but it follows the NORMAL flow of reading. Email is just like any other text-based communication.

Last time I'm posting on the subject. Lets go help some folks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you completely. It's amazing to me that anyone would even be concerned enough to have an opinion about the issue to make an unequivocal statement about it.

Such is our age of hyper-outrage....

I use the list mostly to ask a question and, when I am able, to give an answer to someone else's question. So, for the first response, given the title of the thread a top posted comment is not a problem. The difficulty seems to arise if a discussion ensues. In that case I would suggest that to those whom it is important to follow the arguments that judicious use of < snip > and in between posting is probably the most useful otherwise I am beginning to think that top or bottom posting does not really matter.

Consider how hard copy is retained in a file, that is top posted is it not?

Norman