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Completely off every imaginable topic;)

This discussion is connected to the gimp-user-list.gnome.org mailing list which is provided by the GIMP developers and not related to gimpusers.com.

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Completely off every imaginable topic;) Patrick Horgan 18 Jan 05:13
  Completely off every imaginable topic;) Alexandre Prokoudine 18 Jan 14:23
   Completely off every imaginable topic;) phanisvara das 18 Jan 14:35
    Completely off every imaginable topic;) Ken Warner 18 Jan 14:45
     Completely off every imaginable topic;) Programmer In Training 18 Jan 14:47
     Completely off every imaginable topic;) Jon Cosby 18 Jan 15:49
  Completely off every imaginable topic;) Jon Cosby 18 Jan 16:00
  Completely off every imaginable topic;) jolie 18 Jan 18:03
   Completely off every imaginable topic;) Patrick Horgan 19 Jan 02:12
Patrick Horgan
2010-01-18 05:13:38 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting, writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting? I see it on the gimp, and on other lists all the time.

Beginners don't know what top posting is. They don't understand that there's no business to bitch too about open source software. They don't understand how few people keep open software going. They're completely ignorant about our culture. They don't know how happy people will be if they write intelligent bugs, or offer to make documentation better. They don't understand that the people providing support for them are potentially them.

I guess the point is that it's easy to be annoyed by an ignorant beginner, (definitely speaking from experience), and they make themselves even more annoying by top posting when responding to messages, not knowing that it looks like they are deliberately making it harder to follow the conversation. If we kindly educate them instead of attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some of them to useful human beings.

I really like the way Sven invites people to contribute. For people not used to open source it's startling, and sometimes his invitation to be part of the solution is mistaken for an unwillingness to help. They've got this strange sense of learned helplessness. Even though few of those invited will ever contribute, some do, and some of those who don't contribute right away, have been started thinking about it by Sven and eventually will contribute. On the lilypond list, it's Graham the curmudgeon that keeps inviting people. It works.

If instead we attack them, we make of ourselves boors, and drive away people that might have been of great help eventually. Some of those driven away are lurkers not even involved in the communication. I know that some have more patience than others, but if you can't stand beginners acting like beginners, it's only necessary to ignore them. One of my favorite proverbs is, "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding", or the more modern proverb "Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt";)

People that are going to insist on being idiots go away pretty quickly if ignored. I know people that have been around for years already know all this, but there might be one or two on this list who need a gentle reminder.

Best regards,

Patrick

Alexandre Prokoudine
2010-01-18 14:23:26 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

On 1/18/10, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting, writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting? I see it on the gimp, and on other lists all the time.

Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr. Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in this.

Alexandre

phanisvara das
2010-01-18 14:35:47 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

On Monday 18 January 2010 06:53:26 pm Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr. Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in this.

in my opinion, as long as you actually do think and choose your posting style according to the situation, that's fine. what's obnoxious is people using whatever defaul their email client comes up with, subjecting others to scrolling thru' tons of unnecessary stuff, or making it difficult or impossible to find out what they're talking about because there's no context to be found.

Ken Warner
2010-01-18 14:45:20 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.

phanisvara das wrote:

On Monday 18 January 2010 06:53:26 pm Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr. Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in this.

in my opinion, as long as you actually do think and choose your posting style according to the situation, that's fine. what's obnoxious is people using whatever defaul their email client comes up with, subjecting others to scrolling thru' tons of unnecessary stuff, or making it difficult or impossible to find out what they're talking about because there's no context to be found.

Programmer In Training
2010-01-18 14:47:32 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

On 1/18/2010 7:45 AM, Ken Warner wrote:

Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.

Unfortunately when you top post, you make it everyone's problem. It's lazy and inconsiderate. Top-posting breaks the natural method of reading (top to bottom) and that's the only reason against it (and should be the only reason not to top post).

Jon Cosby
2010-01-18 15:49:18 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 05:45 -0800, Ken Warner wrote:

Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.

It's the same on nearly all mailing lists, Ken. Patrick is being far more polite about it than some.

Jon Cosby

Jon Cosby
2010-01-18 16:00:46 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

On Sun, 2010-01-17 at 20:13 -0800, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting, writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting? I see it on the gimp, and on other lists all the time.

There's worse. At work, people have started dropping the entire context at the support desk. We've been getting some replies as ambiguous as "It didn't work."

Jon Cosby

jolie
2010-01-18 18:03:02 UTC (about 15 years ago)
postings
22

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

If we kindly educate them instead of attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some of them to useful human beings.

Best regards,

Patrick

I'm not sure if English is your first language or not but do you realise what you are saying? "Convert people into useful human beings?"

I get what you mean though, you want beginners to get a warm welcome and when they are here a bit longer they will realise what the customs are.

I'm all for it. New GIMP users can become developers later on or contribute to GIMP in some other way. So I say, be nice, welcoming and understanding to them. Besides, it's good to be nice to others.

The forums on GIMP are very welcoming to newbies, the mailing list a little less so, but it's not that bad.

Patrick Horgan
2010-01-19 02:12:35 UTC (about 15 years ago)

Completely off every imaginable topic;)

jolie wrote:

I'm not sure if English is your first language or not but do you realise what you are saying? "Convert people into useful human beings?"

Nope, Texan is my first language, C/C++ my second and Spanish my third. I tend to get overly ironic in all three.

I get what you mean though, you want beginners to get a warm welcome and when they are here a bit longer they will realise what the customs are.

Yes, please. Interesting that some seem to have taken the post as an attack/flame on top posters, instead of a plea to not attack and to instead realize that they just don't know about effective email communication styles. Glad you got it.

I'm all for it. New GIMP users can become developers later on or contribute to GIMP in some other way. So I say, be nice, welcoming and understanding to them. Besides, it's good to be nice to others.

Thank you:)

Patrick