Hi Zed,

On 28 Aug 09 23:58 zed said:

I find it annoying that there
appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools.

I am confused by this feature request.

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Therefore, by definition, you will always need some tool turned on in order to start work. Why turn everything off?

If the default tool available on startup is not the one you want then you just click to change it. What's the difference between this and starting with no tool selected and clicking it to start?

At no point will you ever want to turn off ALL tools. The only time you'd want to do that is when you want to quit the program, and then you might as well quit the program, why turn it into a two stage quit the tool then quit the program process?

Effectively, this is the same question that new users often ask, "How do I stop the pointer change shape?" The answer is by stopping moving the pointer. In other words, stopping work! It reflects a total lack of undestanding of one of the main functions of the pointer. It's telling you what will happen if you click or drag with the current tool selected. It's a warning that you may need to change tools, or a confirmation that the intended thing will happen as you click or drag.

Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

On Saturday 29 August 2009 08:15:11 zed wrote:

That, together with the fact that at the start a tool is selected and I click on the image and wonder what has happened and how I change it..

i had the same "problem" when i started using gimp. not used to the shape and meaning of pointers, i was wondering what might happen if i clicked somewhere on the open image. quick way to choose an "inoffensive" tool that doesn't change anything inadvertantly is hitting "e" on the keyboard, activating the ellypse selection tool, or "r" for rectangle selection. and if you happen to do something you didn't want to, there's always ctrl-z to "undo" whatever you did...

phani.

On 08/29/2009 12:58 AM, zed wrote:

As a very new user of the Gimp, I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am thinking of a package like Inscape, where the default is that when loaded no tool is selected and one has to make a selection before anything happens.

Is there such a tool in the Gimp? If there is, please will someone tell me how to select it, 'cos I just cannot find it?

There currently isn't, but the transform tool will be pretty similar to the default Inkscape tool:

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Transformation_tool_specification

/ Martin

On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman wrote:

I find it annoying that there
appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools.

I am confused by this feature request.

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool.

For me, a possibility to have a "Panning" tool as the default would make my life much more useful (one which behaves as mid-mouse-drag).

A few mouses around have a middle button. And SPACE-panning is useless if the focus is not on the picture window...

Hope this helps, Ilya

On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Ilya Zakharevich wrote:

On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman wrote:

I find it annoying that there
appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools.

I am confused by this feature request.

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong.  GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for.  And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

Gnu Image *Manipulation* Program

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate

If you want to use GIMP as a display program that's fine - but you're using the wrong tool for the job... OTOH, having a shortcut like 'h' for the hand/panning tool would be fine with me - I would use it.

Chris

On 04 Sep 09 07:27 Ilya Zakharevich said:

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

Well, that's a bit like complaining that your text editor lacks formatting tools because you want to use it as a word processor. The GIMP's author's certainly didn't set out to make it the ideal image viewing software and you shouldn't complain if it doesn't do a job it wasn't designed to do.

Having said that, I am surprised that I can't find a way of to select my choice of default tool on start up.

Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 21:16 +0100, Greg Chapman wrote:

On 04 Sep 09 07:27 Ilya Zakharevich said:

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

Well, that's a bit like complaining that your text editor lacks formatting tools because you want to use it as a word processor. The GIMP's author's certainly didn't set out to make it the ideal image viewing software and you shouldn't complain if it doesn't do a job it wasn't designed to do.

Having said that, I am surprised that I can't find a way of to select my choice of default tool on start up.

Click "Save the Tool Options Now" in the tool options. The currently selected tool will be selected the next time GIMP starts.

Jon Cosby

On 09/04/2009 08:27 AM, Ilya Zakharevich wrote:

On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman wrote:

I find it annoying that there
appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools.

I am confused by this feature request.

The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

Whether the absence of such a tool is a misfeature has to be argued from a product vision [1] perspective. That is, if having such a tool would help us fulfill our product vision, we should add it.

/ Martin

[1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

Hi,
nospam-abuse@ilyaz.org (2009-09-04 at 0627.39 +0000):

The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool.

Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough?

GSR

It seems that the whole preceding thread is focused on the wrong point. The initial writers want a "non-tool" because they want to click on the image window without doing anything. But why do they want to click it? Certainly only for giving it the focus.

That means that they are doing it the wrong way, even if they are doing this all the time. With a decent window manager, you have the option to give the focus to a window as soon as the mouse pointer is above it. With any window manager, you can focus on a given window by clicking on its title bar, or by using some key combination like Alt-TAB.

Use one of these possibilities, make it an automatic action, and you will never again need to click anywhere on a window without wanting to do something there.

On 2009-09-04, Chris Mohler wrote:

I find it annoying that there
appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools.

I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package.

Wrong.  GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for.  And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature.

Gnu Image *Manipulation* Program
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate

If you want to use GIMP as a display program that's fine - but you're using the wrong tool for the job...

Uh-oh! I see I was not clear enough - but I thought it must have been quite obvious... So let me try again:

Why should *A USER* care how some #$!@% *named* a tool?

Why should *A USER* care what *another* user supposes is "a correct tool for the job"? (Assume that the first user has considered the suggestion, appreciated the suggestion, and decided to discard it. ;-) [*]

As my software experience goes, if one writes a good program, users will ALWAYS find some uses for it the designers had no idea about. This is, in essense, my second law of human-software interaction:

the combined intelligence of users of a good piece of software is always higher than one of its designers.

OTOH, having a shortcut like 'h'
for the hand/panning tool would be fine with me - I would use it.

Good - as far as it is assignable to the default. But `h' is taken for Heal, I believe...

Yours,
Ilya

P.S. [*] Myself, I do not use GIMP to CREATE graphics. I use it to fix existing images.

I'm a slow thinker; before I decide HOW would I want to fix a particular photo, I investigate all the details I can think of.

So, while my *intent* is to "manipulate" an image, THE FIRST things I always do are to use GIMP as a viewer. It might be the reason why I consider the default=panning-tool so useful.

Am I so special? Do other edit-not-create people use different workflow?

On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Ilya Zakharevich wrote:

Why should *A USER* care how some #$!@% *named* a tool?

Why should *A USER* care what *another* user supposes is "a correct tool for the job"? (Assume that the first user has considered the suggestion, appreciated the suggestion, and decided to discard it. ;-) [*]

They shouldn't necessarily, indeed, using a tool in new ways can be very helpful and informative. However, when the program explicitly states its purpose

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

You will need to explain how your request is relevant to that vision in order to have any likelihood of having your proposition accepted.

P.S. [*] Myself, I do not use GIMP to CREATE graphics.  I use it to     fix existing images.

    I'm a slow thinker; before I decide HOW would I want to fix a     particular photo, I investigate all the details I can think of.

    So, while my *intent* is to "manipulate" an image, THE FIRST     things I always do are to use GIMP as a viewer.  It might be the     reason why I consider the default=panning-tool so useful.

    Am I so special?  Do other edit-not-create people use different     workflow?

I just drag with the middle mouse button, or the stylus button, to pan, myself. (or I use the navigation view (icon in the bottom right corner of the image view)
If I mainly edited, rather than having a fairly even balance of edit vs create, I would probably set the Zoom tool as the default (or possibly the Measure tool). I might even make the cursor keys scroll the display rather than adjusting opacity etc.

On 2009-09-06, David Gowers wrote:

However, when the program explicitly states its purpose

http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision

You will need to explain how your request is relevant to that vision in order to have any likelihood of having your proposition accepted.

Does not this remind you again the "we know that we know better" adage?

And sorry, but when I read these scrapbooks, I get very strong suspicion that they are written by the same people who claim that GIMP is better than Photoshop :-(...

[But I do not think that this list is the best place to discuss these notes... Is it?]

    Am I so special?  Do other edit-not-create people use different     workflow?

I just drag with the middle mouse button, or the stylus button, to pan, myself.

... omitting the fact that 50% of computers do not have a middle button, 99% of the rest have a wiggling worm (specially designed to make dragging much less reliable) instead a middle button. (And I heard that a "portable" stylus costs about the same as the computer it is connected to... How many are sold? 100000?)

(or I use the navigation view (icon in the bottom right corner of the image view)

... to use which one needs to hunt first a teeny-weeny square with a mouse, which works in the "reversed" direction, with non-intuitive magnification factor (and any interruption of dragging forces one to hunt the starting point again...).

If I mainly edited, rather than having a fairly even balance of edit vs create, I would probably set the Zoom tool as the default

Would not then accidental clicking ruin your zoom ratio?

(or possibly the Measure tool).

[Never used it myself. Might be a good non-tool. But having a useful for-something tool would be much more useful, would not it? ;-]

I might even make the cursor keys scroll the display rather than adjusting opacity etc.

In Emacs, where I use about 5 or 6 different granularities for navigation with cursor keys (char/word/sexp/enclosing-sexp/sentence), I somehow manage to remember the "strength" ordering of modifier keys. (As in

Alt=Meta is stronger than Ctrl, and Alt-Ctrl=Meta-Ctrl is yet stronger

).

However, in picture viewing environments it does not come naturally - I never remember which key makes what kind of movement (px/10px/0.1viewport/viewport/to-the-end). (Maybe because the natural unit of movement in editor - 1char - is the minimal of possible movements, while for viewing 0.1viewport is much more natural binding for Left/Right/Up/Down keys?)

So I find panning by keyboard non-intuitive. (Unless I want go-to-the-end, which is, obviously, on the strongest amplifier Ctrl-Meta=Ctrl-Alt.)

Yours,
Ilya

On 2009-09-04, GSR - FR wrote:

The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool.

Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough?

Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?)

Ilya

On 2009-09-05, Olivier Lecarme wrote:

It seems that the whole preceding thread is focused on the wrong point. The initial writers want a "non-tool" because they want to click on the image window without doing anything. But why do they want to click it? Certainly only for giving it the focus.

Not necessarily. Maybe they want to modify the z-order... OR, maybe for them clicking on windows is just "a normal way of working with a computer", and when with ALL THE OTHER applications clicking is non-destructive, one does not want to modify one's habit if one of the 100 windows on the screen happens to be GIMP's one...

[But the worst offender in this department is Hugin - there is no undo and no other way to switch off destructive results of clicking on the preview window. At least in 0.7...]

That means that they are doing it the wrong way, even if they are doing this all the time.

Oh, I hear a guru speaking...

With a decent window manager, you have the option to give the focus to a window as soon as the mouse pointer is above it.

So we finally got to "my window manager is bigger than yours" level?

With any window manager, you can focus on a given window by clicking on its title bar,

Try finding a title bar after f11... And anyway, the title bar is much smaller target than a window, so hitting it requires extra eye-muscle coordination.

or by using some key combination like Alt-TAB.

Very intuitive, thank you! (Myself, I use Alt-Tab all the time, but not with GIMP - too many windows to choose from.)

Yours, Ilya

Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough?

Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?)

The point was not if you (or somebody else) care about "magnification an image is shown ":
the point is that operation is absolutely not destructive ..nothing change in the imagine not the size not a single pixel

I cannot imagine something less destructive except that a button with no functions at all, except that to provide the pleasure to click safety on something, but without fear or risk of consequences

Then i really love use SW in ways not Imagined by the developers

But the use of gimp as Image viewer WAS imagined,even attempted by few and most agree that Use gimp as Image viewer will be a PITA

While are excellent image viewer/converter (as example for Windows Xnview and Irfanview )that integrate very well in the gimp workflow.

Then if you prefer try to use as Image Viewer you may well do, but without pretending that is a new original and creative idea

Is original as use a knife as was a screwdriver

For me Gimp used as image viewer is even worse then a knife used as screwdriver

On 2009-09-06, photocomix wrote:

Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough?

Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?)

The point was not if you (or somebody else) care about "magnification an image is shown ":
the point is that operation is absolutely not destructive ..nothing change in the imagine not the size not a single pixel

This can hardly be true, since unwanted zooming is very destructive. My (assumingly carefully designed) workspace is no more.

I cannot imagine something less destructive except that a button with no functions at all, except that to provide the pleasure to click safety on something, but without fear or risk of consequences

I assume you have never heard about image being panned by mouse?!

While are excellent image viewer/converter (as example for Windows Xnview and Irfanview )that integrate very well in the gimp workflow.

Irfanview is - in many respects - horrible. It won't keep position when zooming. There is no convenient way to tune brightness/gamma. I do not see a simple way to make pressing `2' go to 1/2 zoom. Just to list a few...

Hope this helps, Ilya