On Friday 22 August 2008, Alexia Death wrote:

Good morning ladies and gentlemen,

... My proposal is basically this:
http://a.death.pri.ee/2.6_default_layout_proposal.png

I like my dialogs to be higher than 1/2 the screen height. And I like similar tool icons next to each other.

This does not mean the layout can not be changed, maybe the average user has other feelings about this subject.

Hi,

On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 20:22 +0300, Alexia Death wrote:

My proposal is basically this:
http://a.death.pri.ee/2.6_default_layout_proposal.png

IMO the tool-options should definitely be part of the toolbox. I would even go as far as locking the tool-options under the toolbox in the default setup. That would make it harder to accidentally drag them out.

For an expert user, your setup may actually be preferable. But I expect an expert user to be able to set up their GIMP layout to their needs.

Sven

Hi,

On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 11:18 +0300, Alexia Death wrote:

In my opinion this layout(thin toolbox, one large dock) is preferable to first time users. It has familiarity. They wont feel lost when GIMP loads for the first time.

For a new GIMP user it is crucial that the tool-options are always fully visible and your proposed setup does not meet this simple criterion.

Sven

On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 20:22 +0300, Alexia Death wrote: [...]

My proposal is basically this:
http://a.death.pri.ee/2.6_default_layout_proposal.png

I think there's some good here, although I also think changes here might be better targeted at 2.8.

I like the Z-brush and RawTherappee style of docked pallettes, although z-brush sicks with multiple imatges. The idea is just that the docks sit next to the image window, as per your picture, but form a list of headings that one can open and close, rather like a gtk+2 treeview.

But with properly docked pallettes (not faked just by putting them near each other), if I had multiple windows open I'd expect to be able to have mutliple docked pallettes, e.g. an Undo History pane for each image. Floating ones would apply to the active image, as now. This greatly reduces visual clutter but keeps everything you need still quickly accessible.

A change like that would need to be reviewed for changes to scripting, though, as well as for documentation, and hence I'd vote for waiting for 2.8, and seeing how the new tag editing fits in.

I do agree that GIMp needs to work well on 1024x768 screens, at least for now, as well as larger ones.

Liam

If you check this list's log you'll learn that the layout you suggest has already been proposed about a year ago. I know because I did it.
Later I proposed that layout again in my brainstorm entry about the no-image-open dialog.

I used that layout for several months, but I changed my mind. And now I'm using a totally different one.

http://www.ohweb.com.ar/screenshots/one-window-layout.png

The screen space usage is addressed too, and I have all in one (I have one window button less in the bottom panel with gimp 2.4, and that's good). This shows that a single problem may have more than one solution (although this solution has the disadvantage of being only useful with high screen resolutions).

One of the Gimp's strengths is being able to customize the UI to have your layout, my layout and differents layouts, depending on what are your needs.

But, in other hand, Gimp has a problem with it's default layout (in my oppinion). And it's not the lack of familiarity with photoshop or whatsoever.
They tell us that this layout is better for new users, but every new user I know (mostly when they come from windows) the first thing they do is closing the right docker (trying to close the program). And they loose it forever (they have to re-construct it if they want it back). That's overkill.
That's one of the things that make gimp's UI look weird for newcomers. And that's frequently a problem with multiple windows UIs. You don't know what X closes the program and you end up closing other windows.

I'd try to address this problem instead of thinking on mimicking other programs UIs looking for "familiarity".

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:29:40 +0200, Alexia Death wrote:

and third, a bit of familiarity for the first time users(separate, 2 line toolbox) can not hurt.

Hi,

On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 16:44 -0300, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

They tell us that this layout is better for new users, but every new user I know (mostly when they come from windows) the first thing they do is closing the right docker (trying to close the program). And they loose it forever (they have to re-construct it if they want it back). That's overkill.
That's one of the things that make gimp's UI look weird for newcomers. And that's frequently a problem with multiple windows UIs. You don't know what X closes the program and you end up closing other windows.

I'd try to address this problem instead of thinking on mimicking other programs UIs looking for "familiarity".

This has been addressed in GIMP 2.5. And the change is even explained in the release notes.

Sven

Hi,

On Sat, 2008-08-23 at 22:29 +0300, Alexia Death wrote:

I think I need to state that my image was not an "exactly like this" proposal. There are altogether three points it tries to make. First, the image window needs to be incorporated into the default layout.

Care to explain how the image window is not incorporated into the default layout right now? It has exactly the size given in the spec: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/No_image_open_specification

The default position given in the spec is somewhat ambiguous as there's no default position of an image window. Perhaps this needs to be specified more clearly. Until then we solved this by telling the window manager that we would like the no-image window centered on first startup.

Yes, tool options need to be visible by default and so does layers dialog, I agree... But that is secondary to the generic layout.

It is the primary goal that we need to meet with the default layout. The users need the tool-options (all of it, without any scrollbars) and they need the layers dialog. Both visible at the same time. This is crucial for them to understand how GIMP works. And I don't see how we could do that without opening two docks.

For this release we have at least managed to open the second dock at the right edge of the screen. That was not possible with GIMP 2.4.

Sven

This has been addressed in GIMP 2.5. And the change is even explained in the release notes.

Oh, I didn't read that part. Great news. Thanks!

I agree with you, Alexia.
maybe we can also look at Macromedia user interface, such as: Flash, Fireworks or Dreamweaver UI, their UI is different from Photoshop but still easy to learn, simple to manage, and extensible. Even i think Macromedia have better UI than Adobe.

this is my suggestions for new GIMP default layout, i don't go to specific layout but i only have few things that imo need to give more attentions:

- Big Workspace Graphics artist need a Big Workspace, just imagine our monitor as the canvas then users will want it all screen area is available as work area if possible so imo toolbox should be as small as possible and tool options should be able to hide and show using one-click or one-shortcut.

- Workspace layout dialog Workspace layout with keyboards shortcut also can be saved and load with simple dialog with some presets (ready to use layout or default layout), so artist only need to setup the workspace and shortcuts that he comfortable and can bring that settings to other computer easily. Default layout is useful for education process which need consistent UI that will make easier to remember for the first time learner and if accidentally changed by user, we can easily put it back to the default layout.

- Workflows. This is one thing that almost invisible on the programs UI, but if we carefully look at programs with great UI that surely for every aspect of the UI is tweaked to produce faster step to be done for all common workflows for every users. Common workflows only can be asked to the users that using the programs a lot and this users usually use it for their daily professional jobs, for example: photographer, they have "photo post-processing or raw workflow", web designer, they have "web layouting and slicing workflow", design graphic, they have "color preparation and color separation workflow", and many more others.

So every single UI elements such as icon, menu, shortcuts, etc is tweaked to improve how faster the workflows can be done, for example: if user doing selection then usually there is couple operation that follow that selection process so after the selection finish the mouse cursor change to move mode and right-click menu will show operation such as: cut, copy, delete or move. This need context menu feature, menu that can be changed based on activated tool.

regards,
ek kian

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 3:00 AM, Alexia Death wrote:

On Saturday 23 August 2008 22:51:51 gg@catking.net wrote:

that's the second time you propose "familiarity" for a first time user. How can a first time user be familiar with anything? Or is this another "Gimp should look and behave like Photoshop" proposal?

No it should not look like Photoshop. First time user is just as likely to be
unfamiliar with Photoshop as Gimp. What it wuld not hurt to look like a bit is
Inkscape and yes, im horrified to say, MS Paint. Both have similar toolboxes.

IN RESPONSE to "Photoshop like" idea :

"... it should not look like Photoshop" -> SHOULD NEVER LOOK LIKE Photoshop - because Photoshop even with the new UI additions on CS3 look horrible - GUI for *Smurfs*.

I see noone talk here about Corel Draw or Corel Photopaint GUI. For a new user, from the second 2 or 3 - it become clear who, why, when, where and how ( ...the last is a joke - "how" become clear after some mounts ot years depend on client material ;) ).

In fact Corel GUI should give the base idea not PhotoShop ( in case if someone should give an ideea ) - I remember my first days on Corel, I was able to create my workspaces - with my floating or docked toolbars - with my prefered buttons - with my icons ( yep you can edit icons for buttons ), and to customize 500% more options than Photoshop. Then I ask myself ( for the first time - what is so great about Photoshop ?? [v.5 I think...]).

Enfin, Ek kian - GIMP had a GUI Team now. Professionals. They work on GUI specs for the new GIMP and finally, I think the GIMP GUI will be OK anyway - with or without our opinions.

If you go to http://gimp-brainstorm.blogspot.com/ you will see - before you - some 1000 other guys think / talk about exactly the same things. Ro be clean - exactly the same things. But their list is open and is never complete...

THERE on brainstorm.org this discussion should take place - not HERE.

Therefore I am designer too ( with some GUI Design knowledge - I won my money from such kind of things) - so I have 1507 or 1509 ideas right now - just try to imagine I'll post all 1507 or 1509 mails to THIS mailing list. The list wil become "the SorinN's list" ( they will do a sucesfull movie after few years [ 50 to be precise and ...damn I like that dream.. ] ). And GIMP will become ...maybe a simple text editor, even without syntax checker because the mailing list go in Abstract, unified with The Force... and all peoples, actors, singers, developers, detectives, criminals, etc - will loose any interest on GIMP development ( because of my GUI novels with much more eyeappeal than the boring if / else / while / for statements ).

I hope you got the point - because I have to go to work. See ya later - on brainstorm.org.

2008/8/27 Ek kian

I agree with you, Alexia.
maybe we can also look at Macromedia user interface, such as: Flash, Fireworks or Dreamweaver UI, their UI is different from Photoshop but still easy to learn, simple to manage, and extensible. Even i think Macromedia have better UI than Adobe.

this is my suggestions for new GIMP default layout, i don't go to specific layout but i only have few things that imo need to give more attentions:

- Big Workspace Graphics artist need a Big Workspace, just imagine our monitor as the canvas then users will want it all screen area is available as work area if possible so imo toolbox should be as small as possible and tool options should be able to hide and show using one-click or one-shortcut.

- Workspace layout dialog Workspace layout with keyboards shortcut also can be saved and load with simple dialog with some presets (ready to use layout or default layout), so artist only need to setup the workspace and shortcuts that he comfortable and can bring that settings to other computer easily. Default layout is useful for education process which need consistent UI that will make easier to remember for the first time learner and if accidentally changed by user, we can easily put it back to the default layout.

- Workflows. This is one thing that almost invisible on the programs UI, but if we carefully look at programs with great UI that surely for every aspect of the UI is tweaked to produce faster step to be done for all common workflows for every users. Common workflows only can be asked to the users that using the programs a lot and this users usually use it for their daily professional jobs, for example: photographer, they have "photo post-processing or raw workflow", web designer, they have "web layouting and slicing workflow", design graphic, they have "color preparation and color separation workflow", and many more others.

So every single UI elements such as icon, menu, shortcuts, etc is tweaked to improve how faster the workflows can be done, for example: if user doing selection then usually there is couple operation that follow that selection process so after the selection finish the mouse cursor change to move mode and right-click menu will show operation such as: cut, copy, delete or move. This need context menu feature, menu that can be changed based on activated tool.

regards,
ek kian

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 3:00 AM, Alexia Death wrote:

On Saturday 23 August 2008 22:51:51 gg@catking.net wrote:

that's the second time you propose "familiarity" for a first time user.

How can a first time user be familiar with anything? Or is this another

"Gimp should look and behave like Photoshop" proposal?

No it should not look like Photoshop. First time user is just as likely to be
unfamiliar with Photoshop as Gimp. What it wuld not hurt to look like a bit is
Inkscape and yes, im horrified to say, MS Paint. Both have similar toolboxes.
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