On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:25:01 +0400, "Alexandre Prokoudine" wrote:

Say, I need to select a region and move it.

Documentation clearly states: "Click-and-drag then allows you to move the selection and its contents, while the initial position remains empty."

That bit of docs probably belongs to 2.2, but definitely not to 2.4:

Yes, the behavior has changed during the 2.3.x development. Clicking without modifiers will now always start a new selection. With 2.2 and previous versions, some users complained about the different behavior of the selection tools if you were clicking inside or outside an existing selection.

While paste in place and under cursor definitely belong to 2.6, I wonder if the move selection with its contents feature got lost due to all the changes to rectangular tools.

Yes, there is:
- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

The user and me checked:

- docs - UserFaq in wiki
- google
- spec for new rectangle tools

You forgot to check the status bar messages while using the selection tools. They suggest to try Alt, and when you do that you will see the explanation about what you can do.

The docs will eventually be updated for 2.4, and then it will be easier to find this information.

-Raphaël

On 8/29/07, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

That seems backwards in a way. To make it easy to remember which moves (ie. shifts) the pixels and which moves a copy it would be better the other way around. The C from Ctrl would make one think of Copy while Shift would be just that (shifting but not copying).

Probably too late to change this and would confuse users who are already used to it as it is now.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2007, 17:56:01, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

Yes, the behavior has changed during the 2.3.x development. Clicking without modifiers will now always start a new selection. With 2.2 and previous versions, some users complained about the different behavior of the selection tools if you were clicking inside or outside an existing selection.

Is there any way to get the old behaviour back? Every other program I use(d) does it that way, and at least to me it's annoying when I try to move the selection and instead start a new one...

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:38:26 -0400, Kevin Cozens wrote:

On 8/29/07, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

That seems backwards in a way. To make it easy to remember which moves (ie. shifts) the pixels and which moves a copy it would be better the other way around. The C from Ctrl would make one think of Copy while Shift would be just that (shifting but not copying).

Probably too late to change this and would confuse users who are already used to it as it is now.

It should not be too hard to change this. This would not even require a string change because the messages suggesting to use the various modifiers are generated dynamically.

I remember discussing these combinations of modifiers with mitch, so we should wait until he can comment on that before changing anything.

Also, while I understand your arguments about shift = move and C as in Copy, these are only valid in a few locales (mostly en_*). And if you compare with how the modifiers are used for other operations, then you will see that we tend to use Shift for things that are less destructive than Ctrl. Maybe that was the reason for selecting Alt+Shift for copy. I don't remember.

-Raphaël

Raphaël Quinet gimp.org> writes:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:25:01 +0400, "Alexandre Prokoudine"

gmail.com> wrote:

Say, I need to select a region and move it.

Documentation clearly states: "Click-and-drag then allows you to move the selection and its contents, while the initial position remains empty."

That bit of docs probably belongs to 2.2, but definitely not to 2.4:

Yes, the behavior has changed during the 2.3.x development. Clicking without modifiers will now always start a new selection. With 2.2 and previous versions, some users complained about the different behavior of the selection tools if you were clicking inside or outside an existing selection.

While paste in place and under cursor definitely belong to 2.6, I wonder if the move selection with its contents feature got lost due to all the changes to rectangular tools.

Yes, there is:
- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

With 2.4.0-rc2, I get this behaviour:

After selecting a region, I can resize and move the selection by dragging the mouse within the selection. When I press either Alt+Ctrl or Alt+Shift, I can start a new selection within the old one. I have not found a way yet to actually move the pixels (except cut-and-paste).

cheers, Christian

Raphaël Quinet gimp.org> writes:

On Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:25:01 +0400, "Alexandre Prokoudine"

gmail.com> wrote:

Say, I need to select a region and move it.

Documentation clearly states: "Click-and-drag then allows you to move the selection and its contents, while the initial position remains empty."

That bit of docs probably belongs to 2.2, but definitely not to 2.4:

Yes, the behavior has changed during the 2.3.x development. Clicking without modifiers will now always start a new selection. With 2.2 and previous versions, some users complained about the different behavior of the selection tools if you were clicking inside or outside an existing selection.

While paste in place and under cursor definitely belong to 2.6, I wonder if the move selection with its contents feature got lost due to all the changes to rectangular tools.

Yes, there is:
- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

I'm currently struggling with this in 2.4.0-rc2:

After selecting a region, I can resize and move the selection by dragging the mouse within the selection. When I press either Alt+Ctrl or Alt+Shift, I can start a new selection within the area of the current selection. I have not found a way to move the pixels yet (except cut-and-paste of course).

Also, In the move tool, the options in the "Selection" tab are always disabled, and there are two entries named "Move selection".

cheers, Christian

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:36:35 +0000 (UTC), Christian Henz wrote:

Raphaël Quinet gimp.org> writes:

Yes, there is:
- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

I'm currently struggling with this in 2.4.0-rc2:

After selecting a region, I can resize and move the selection by dragging the mouse within the selection. When I press either Alt+Ctrl or Alt+Shift, I can start a new selection within the area of the current selection. I have not found a way to move the pixels yet (except cut-and-paste of course).

Did you first confirm the selection by pressing Enter or clicking once inside it? Once the editable rectangle is confirmed and turned into a "real" selection, you should be able to move its contents with Alt+Ctrl.

Also, In the move tool, the options in the "Selection" tab are always disabled, and there are two entries named "Move selection".

This looks like a bug.

-Raphaël

On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 04:57:07PM +0200, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 14:36:35 +0000 (UTC), Christian Henz wrote:

Raphaël Quinet gimp.org> writes:

Yes, there is:
- Alt+Ctrl moves the selected pixels. - Alt+Shift moves a copy of the selected pixels.

I'm currently struggling with this in 2.4.0-rc2:

After selecting a region, I can resize and move the selection by dragging the mouse within the selection. When I press either Alt+Ctrl or Alt+Shift, I can start a new selection within the area of the current selection. I have not found a way to move the pixels yet (except cut-and-paste of course).

Did you first confirm the selection by pressing Enter or clicking once inside it? Once the editable rectangle is confirmed and turned into a "real" selection, you should be able to move its contents with Alt+Ctrl.

Ah, okay that seems to work, thank you. This is even less convenient than the cut-and-paste solution though :-/

cheers,
Christian

On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 17:21 +0200, Christian Henz wrote: [...]

Ah, okay that seems to work, thank you. This is even less convenient than the cut-and-paste solution though :-/

You can also "float selection", I think control-shift-L by default, and then move it.

Liam

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:01:34 +0200, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 17:21 +0200, Christian Henz wrote: [...]

Ah, okay that seems to work, thank you. This is even less convenient than the cut-and-paste
solution though :-/

You can also "float selection", I think control-shift-L by default, and then move it.

Liam

All these magic keystrokes seem pretty much essential to a lot of these features and without that knowlege Gimp looses a lot of functionality.

Is all this documented in any one central place? I mean without trawling the entire documentation of gimp from A-Z and making notes with a pen and paper.

This seems to be a recurrent kind of question where someone cant do something and suggests an improvement or feature request and then someone else replies "why don't you just press cntl-alt-shift-F8-Enter while holding down the right mouse button. It already does what you want."

This is all horrible obscure but a table resuming all functional combinations would be a centralised resourse that would be a great help to discovering many of these features that otherwise get missed.

Having been made aware of a feature that seems to be relevant the user could then consult the doc on that particular tool to get the full story.

Maybe it exists and I've missed it.

regards, gg.

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-09-12 at 22:04 +0200, gg@catking.net wrote:

All these magic keystrokes seem pretty much essential to a lot of these features and without that knowlege Gimp looses a lot of functionality.

Is all this documented in any one central place? I mean without trawling the entire documentation of gimp from A-Z and making notes with a pen and paper.

Pretty much all keyboard shortcuts are documented right there in the user interface. They are suggested to the user in the statusbar, the respective tool options are annotated with the modifier keys and they are mentioned in tooltips.

Of course you could try to write all this down in yet another document. But that would only duplicate the effort of the GIMP user manual and its mouse and keyboard reference sheet.

Sven