Hi Marius!

I think there are people interested in this enhancement, but it depends on how it is prepared and presented. Currently all dev. stuff is working hardly on 2.4 release so they are a bit busy. ;-)

It's usual to write a C patch and try to get it accepted by the dev. here. Ok currently I' cant provide a C patch but I'm interested in GIMP dev. - what to do?

First I think we have to discuss UI questions with the UI guys at http://gui.gimp.org
(hmm - how best to do this?)

Second we have to completely work out the thing to motivate a dev. to implement the changes.

I would like to further discuss your enhancement - please contact me via private mail so that we can start to work on this... forum@dolchonline.net

--> Some comments to your enhancement post:

01. Yes good idea (but never speak out the evil word pho***o* - dev. are a bit sensitive to it ;-)
02. We definitely have to extend the color editing tools because motion picture compositing software has far more powerful tools for color editing available.
03. a first quick and dirty proof from my side for everyone interested:

http://www.dolchonline.net/prj/GIMP/chart_mokup_HSL_adjustment.png http://www.dolchonline.net/prj/GIMP/hsl-adjustment-dialog-mockup-small.png

Best Regards

Danko

Marius B wrote:

Hi,

It seems that nobody is interested in this enhancement, but IMO it`s a nice feature that is worth discussing. I would like to hear your opinion about my mockup of this dialog http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=92732 in bugreport
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461658

I know it`s not perfect, but it`s obvious for me, that the current one needs some redesign.

Yesterday I filled a bugreport 461658 about this, but I was advised, better to discus this matter here. There I have attached the patch and a mockup.

Currently, hue-saturation tool dialog has master button surrounded with 6 color
boxes, whitch changes its color while regulating hue/lightness/saturation
values. Unfortunately it makes this dialog unnesasary big and akward to use.

So my enhancement proposal would be to make this dialog look more like photoshop`s, but of course, not identical. In my opinion, those two hsl gradients can show quite alot information, even without looking at the modified
picture itself. Most important, you can see seamless color transitions, and
compare to the original gradient.

As a start, I just added those two gradients, without radicaly changing this
meniu.

I should mention, that I encountered a problem with current svn version, that
gimp_gradient_get_color_at function now requires gimpcontext, thou it is absolutely unnecessary in this case, so I dont know how to get it, and for now,
I just made it optional in there.

Looking forward to healthy discussion Marius

Hi Raphaël!

I wasn't really serious as I wrote about the "evil pho****" ;-))

My intention was just to point that a lot of dev. don't like to hear "photoshop can this and it does that - why is there still any difference between PS and GIMP????"

but stop - let's concentrate on important things like 2.4...

Best Regards

Danko

Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 12:04:08 +0200, Danko Dolch wrote:

01. Yes good idea (but never speak out the evil word pho***o* - dev. are a bit sensitive to it ;-)

Just a little thing that I would like to clarify: mentioning Photoshop or other products on this list is perfectly OK.

If anybody on this list feels offended of feels compelled to react strongly when someone mentions Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, Windows, Adobe, Microsoft or some other proprietary products or companies, then they do not belong here. Feel free to have constructive discussions and to compare GIMP with other products here. Other programs also have great features, so describing these features and their pros and cons can be a nice way to make GIMP even better.

However, there are some things that you should avoid:

- Assuming that everybody knows what you mean when you talk about some specific feature of another program. I do not have a copy of Photoshop (*) and most GIMP developers do not have one either. I have not seen nor used any recent version of Photoshop. So if you mention some specific feature of another program, please be sure to describe it precisely instead of just saying that we should implement this or that like in Photoshop.

- Assuming that we want to have the same features as another program. With the help of Peter, we have developed a vision for GIMP: http://developer.gimp.org/gimpcon/2006/index.html#vision Features that do not fit in the GIMP vision will probably not be implemented. Among other things, GIMP does not try to copy Photoshop or MS Paint.

- Assuming that we will implement some useful feature in the same way as another program. There is often more than one way to implement something. Each solution has advantages and disadvantages. We should always try to implement the solution that fits best together with other GIMP features. So when you describe a feature, try to describe its purpose (what does it do? why is it useful? to whom?) before describing how it works.

Most of the comments on the list that were complaining about a message mentioning Photoshop were due to one of the reasons given above. The complaints that were not due to one of these reasons can probably be ignored. So feel free to mention other products or programs here, as long as you provide useful information.

By the way, there is no need to censor or change the name of a product or company when you mention it (Ph*t*sh*p, Windoze, ...) We can speak like grown-ups. Or try to. ;-)

So these were just my 2 cents to avoid spreading misconceptions about what is OK and what is not OK on this list...

-Raphaël

(*) I might still have a CD with Photoshop 4.0 LE for Windows 95 that that came with my scanner. But my old Win95 PC has not been booted since a very long time. And a 10 years old copy of Photoshop is probably irrelevant for most comparisons.

Hi Guillermo!

Guillermo Espertino wrote:

Marius B wrote:

Hi,

It seems that nobody is interested in this enhancement, but IMO it`s a nice feature that is worth discussing. I would like to hear your opinion about my mockup of this dialog http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=92732 in bugreport
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461658

I know it`s not perfect, but it`s obvious for me, that the current one needs some redesign.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mockup basically aims to change the aspect of the dialog without adding any enhancement. The tool does exactly the same but the dialog looks like Photoshop's one.

Does it? I havn't used PS since a long long time... if it looks like PS then I have to have a look at PS but I don't expect to find there highend visualisation functions like in motion picture color grading tools nor the cool discreet like preset banks... ;-)

Yes exactly the same except for:

- the more visual primary color selection with enhanced visualisation - powerful storage banks for test setups - a drop down preset lib
- loading and saveing of settings
- added compare tool
- sliders with scale marks and middel point mark

finally you can say it's exactly the same ;-)

The only improvement I see is the ability to see the actual influence of the overlap value on the color gradient, wich is cool, but I don't know if it's cool enough to change the whole dialog, that already works fine.

I only had an hour to made the mockup so I don't found the time to implement highlight/mid/shadow support or other needful extensions... you are right this had to be integrated for future mockups - and even I have to go step by step - next version will show a lot more maybe... ;-)

Until today nobody has integrated this small cool things in a standard image editing application - not even that small things... (what sense made it to figure out complex things if even the simple ones are not realized? ;-)

Maybe it would be better for future versions to redesign the dialog adding some real enhancements to the tool, like arbitrary 3-point gradient selection and/or a curve for tweaking. In that case, the use of a wheel is better than a linear scale because it matches better with the well known color wheel scheme.

You are absolutely right - lets go and start with this - I really would enjoy to integrate all this things into a mockup and discuss pros and cons...

Gez.

p.s.: I support the idea that Campbell Barton suggested a couple of days ago. Maybe it would be better to create a new mailing list focused on functionality discussion. This would avoid the frequent conflict user requests vs. developers priorities and would bring some fresh ideas for the project.
I don't want to bug any developer with functionality requests if this list is only focused on coding, but I'd really like to have a place for discussing features and useability issues that are also very important for the overall quality of Gimp.

That would be really great!
I'm a bit modest with posting here because of that... And where to find the people from the GUI wiki?

Best Regards

Danko

Hi Sven!

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 14:41 -0300, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mockup basically aims to change the aspect of the dialog without adding any enhancement. The tool does exactly the same but the dialog looks like Photoshop's one. The only improvement I see is the ability to see the actual influence of the overlap value on the color gradient, wich is cool, but I don't know if it's cool enough to change the whole dialog, that already works fine.
Maybe it would be better for future versions to redesign the dialog adding some real enhancements to the tool, like arbitrary 3-point gradient selection and/or a curve for tweaking. In that case, the use of a wheel is better than a linear scale because it matches better with the well known color wheel scheme.

I agree with this. We should take our time to look at this tool and how it could be improved to become really useful. A first start would be to write down some usage scenarios where this tool could be useful.

Ok - I would like to do so - I've tryed to create a user account at the GUI wiki but it seems that not all functions are working? I could not create an account.

How could I start to help?

Then
perhaps evalulate how well the current implementation and the PS tool deal with it.

Could get a PS user to support me with this - I could point how Corel Photopaint and Autodesk Combustion are working...

--> Maybe it's not only useful to think about the HSL adjustment dialog - there are for sure a lot of other things to look at?

--> It would be so helpful to get an prototyping env. for UI test's for example via scripting. I know there are a lot of limitations but what do You think is the best way not only to draw images? I support some coders in the company where I'm working with HTML/Java-Script/Ruby and we create really complex interface elements for WEB 2.0 apps.
I would like to get some tips, how I as graphics designer with a scripting background could prototype and test some interface elements...

Best Regards

Danko

Sven

Hi Guillermo!

Guillermo Espertino wrote: > Marius B wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> It seems that nobody is interested in this enhancement, but IMO it`s a >> nice feature that is worth discussing. >> I would like to hear your opinion about my mockup of this dialog >> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=92732 >> in bugreport
>> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461658 >>
>> I know it`s not perfect, but it`s obvious for me, that the current one >> needs some redesign.
>>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mockup basically aims to change the aspect of the dialog without adding any enhancement. The tool does exactly the same but the dialog looks like Photoshop's one. >
Does it? I havn't used PS since a long long time... if it looks like PS then I have to have a look at PS but I don't expect to find there highend visualisation functions like in motion picture color grading tools nor the cool discreet like preset banks... ;-)

Yes exactly the same except for:

- the more visual primary color selection with enhanced visualisation - powerful storage banks for test setups - a drop down preset lib
- loading and saveing of settings
- added compare tool
- sliders with scale marks and middel point mark

finally you can say it's exactly the same ;-)

> The only improvement I see is the ability to see the actual influence of the overlap value on the color gradient, wich is cool, but I don't know if it's cool enough to change the whole dialog, that already works fine.
>
I only had an hour to made the mockup so I don't found the time to implement highlight/mid/shadow support or other needful extensions... you are right this had to be integrated for future mockups - and even I have to go step by step - next version will show a lot more maybe... ;-)

Until today nobody has integrated this small cool things in a standard image editing application - not even that small things... (what sense made it to figure out complex things if even the simple ones are not realized? ;-)

> Maybe it would be better for future versions to redesign the dialog adding some real enhancements to the tool, like arbitrary 3-point gradient selection and/or a curve for tweaking. In that case, the use of a wheel is better than a linear scale because it matches better with the well known color wheel scheme.
>

You are absolutely right - lets go and start with this - I really would enjoy to integrate all this things into a mockup and discuss pros and cons...

> Gez.
>
> p.s.: I support the idea that Campbell Barton suggested a couple of days ago. Maybe it would be better to create a new mailing list focused on functionality discussion. This would avoid the frequent conflict user requests vs. developers priorities and would bring some fresh ideas for the project.
> I don't want to bug any developer with functionality requests if this list is only focused on coding, but I'd really like to have a place for discussing features and useability issues that are also very important for the overall quality of Gimp.
>
That would be really great!
I'm a bit modest with posting here because of that... And where to find the people from the GUI wiki?

Best Regards

Danko

Hi Guillermo!

Guillermo Espertino wrote:

Danko Dolch escribió:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mockup basically aims to change the aspect of the dialog without adding any enhancement. The tool does exactly the same but the dialog looks like Photoshop's one.

Does it? I havn't used PS since a long long time... if it looks like PS then I have to have a look at PS but I don't expect to find there highend visualisation functions like in motion picture color grading tools nor the cool discreet like preset banks... ;-)

I attach a side by side comparision between your mockup and the Photoshop CS2 Hue/Saturation dialog.

Ah jep - have to clarify that this first mockup was created by mario -> see the first post from him ;-)

Yes exactly the same except for:

- the more visual primary color selection with enhanced visualisation - powerful storage banks for test setups - a drop down preset lib
- loading and saveing of settings
- added compare tool
- sliders with scale marks and middel point mark

finally you can say it's exactly the same ;-)

I wasn't talking about the PS Hue/Saturation tool. What I was trying to say is that this mockup looks like the PS dialog but with the same features of the current tool in Gimp. *http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=92732* I don't see any of those features in that mockup. If you're referring to a different one, please let me know and point me the correct URL.

PS Hue saturation tool?

Mario had created the first mockup: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=92732

As response I thougt about how I would like use this tool and cerated this as an answer to marios first work:

http://www.dolchonline.net/prj/GIMP/hsl-adjustment-dialog-mockup-small.png

to explain my thought's I put it together to this overview: http://www.dolchonline.net/prj/GIMP/chart_mokup_HSL_adjustment.png

I only had an hour to made the mockup so I don't found the time to implement highlight/mid/shadow support or other needful extensions... you are right this had to be integrated for future mockups - and even I have to go step by step - next version will show a lot more maybe... ;-)

I'm looking forward to see that. I'm very interested! :)

That's great! Let's create some interesting new UI conceptions! We should follow Seven's suggestions and crete more usage scenarios first...

Until today nobody has integrated this small cool things in a standard image editing application - not even that small things... (what sense made it to figure out complex things if even the simple ones are not realized? ;-)

If I learned something in the Gimp's developers list is that you have to convince developers of the value of your proposals. Most of the times it's a titanic task, but when you make it the results are great.
Most of the times, also, they don't pay attention to small changes, but when a nice challenge pops up, they seem to be more interested. A couple of weeks ago I pointed an issue in the jpeg exporter. The first time I was treated like... ehm... an idiot. But after the big discussion, there are some news in that field and the exporter was greatly improved.
As I told you, it was hard, but it worths.

It's a hard thing to improve things ;-) But we have to do it... And yes - we have to create some real "challenges" for the coders ;-)

Maybe it would be better for future versions to redesign the dialog adding some real enhancements to the tool, like arbitrary 3-point gradient selection and/or a curve for tweaking. In that case, the use of a wheel is better than a linear scale because it matches better with the well known color wheel scheme.

You are absolutely right - lets go and start with this - I really would enjoy to integrate all this things into a mockup and discuss pros and cons...

Ok! I love the idea. Let's start to analize the possibilities and brainstorm a couple of mockups so we can send them a complete use scenario and a nice mockup to see if they like the idea of implementing it.
I'm working on a rough mockup with an idea with the wheel and something else. I'll send you a sample when it is more advanced. Keep in touch!

ok - we will do! :-)

Gez.

P.s.: Sorry I called you Marius B in the list. I had misread the e-mail heading.

no problem - hey mario let's start to work - we have a lot of things to do - and finaly figure out how we could support the GUI group...

Best Regards

Danko

Hi Guillermo!

>Hi Danko:
>Here is a very very early mockup.
>I have the idea but had no time to translate it to a better mockup.

I know - t's the same for me too... ;-)

>I have to re-arrange some buttons, add others, and think lots of things (for example, I'm not sure if >the current widgets allow a wheel selector like that)

I suspect they don't but I see our current task not so much in creating designs for the current widget set but in showing how a modern and powerful dialog should look for future releases.

Unfortunately I'm currently not enough involved in the practical interface work. So first I will concentrate on designing next gen. controls and discuss them.

This will result in new ideas and can be helpful to further dev. the GIMP UI.

--> But now some feedback to your mockup:

I really like the color weel with the second ring - so you can visualize the different In/Out color parameters in one way - to use it we need radial sliders - great!

I see the color picker - nice!

And the Curve Tool for the color overlapping - yes...

-> The curve would be opened in a second window right? I have a problem with all this cluttered windows. I like a single dialog with all available parameters - but this will quickly get komplex.

pro: no cluttered messing with different windows and clicking through "assistants"
con: needs lot of display space and makes the dialog too complex for most users (even pros ;-)

solution: INTERPLAY[in the beginning the UI design was static - and people needed more flexible configuration options - then programs got thousands of floating cluttered windows and people had to arrange them all the time instead of working with the app. - now we got this nice type of free configurable non overlapping UI - like in Blender or combustion or a lot of other great programms - this is flexible but powerful and in a long term we should think about the pros and cons of this...)

We make the additional areas like adjustment curve dynamically extending the main dialog (open or close with a small arrow button)

>Anyways I'd like to discuss with you some ideas off-list to reach a more compelling design.

Question:

1. Is http://gui.gimp.org still active developed? 2. How we get in touch with Peter, Kamila and Ellen to see on what they are currently working.
3. We urgently need a Forum and a Wiki where we can meet the other people working on the GIMP UI

greetings

Danko

>Regards, >Gez.

Hi Sven!

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Wed, 2007-08-15 at 14:41 -0300, Guillermo Espertino wrote:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that mockup basically aims to change the aspect of the dialog without adding any enhancement. The tool does exactly the same but the dialog looks like Photoshop's one. The only improvement I see is the ability to see the actual influence of the overlap value on the color gradient, wich is cool, but I don't know if it's cool enough to change the whole dialog, that already works fine.
Maybe it would be better for future versions to redesign the dialog adding some real enhancements to the tool, like arbitrary 3-point gradient selection and/or a curve for tweaking. In that case, the use of a wheel is better than a linear scale because it matches better with the well known color wheel scheme.

I agree with this. We should take our time to look at this tool and how it could be improved to become really useful. A first start would be to write down some usage scenarios where this tool could be useful.

Ok - I would like to do so - I've tryed to create a user account at the GUI wiki but it seems that not all functions are working? I could not create an account.

How could I start to help?

Then
perhaps evalulate how well the current implementation and the PS tool deal with it.

Could get a PS user to support me with this - I could point how Corel Photopaint and Autodesk Combustion are working...

--> Maybe it's not only useful to think about the HSL adjustment dialog - there are for sure a lot of other things to look at?

--> It would be so helpful to get an prototyping env. for UI test's for example via scripting. I know there are a lot of limitations but what do You think is the best way not only to draw images? I support some coders in the company where I'm working with HTML/Java-Script/Ruby and we create really complex interface elements for WEB 2.0 apps.
I would like to get some tips, how I as graphics designer with a scripting background could prototype and test some interface elements...

Best Regards

Danko

Sven