On 9/20/06, Carol Spears wrote:

i just checked preferences and the defaults start with that mouse wheel controller to be automatically enabled by default.

is this such a common mouse

It is. No kidding.

Alexandre

Logitech, Microsoft, and Kensington together supply mice for over 50% of the market. With only a few exceptions (the 2-button ValuMouse by Kensington and a 1-button replacement for the Macintosh), all of their models include a scroll wheel (in some cases, a "scroll sensor" or trackball). The remainder of the mouse industry is composed mostly of OEM manufacturers who provide either clones of the wheel mice or "value" models which are expected to be replaced after the original sale of the computer.

I think it is a reasonable assumption that a majority of mice have scroll wheels.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 20:46:24, Carol Spears wrote:

is this such a common mouse and are the users of such a mouse unable to set the default themselves?

Unless you're used to IBM workstations (or old Macs), then yes, wheel mice are common - I bought my first one about 10 years ago, and I haven't seen wheelless mice sold in a long time (except for Mac users).

jernej@ena.si schreef:

On Wednesday, September 20, 2006, 20:46:24, Carol Spears wrote:

is this such a common mouse and are the users of such a mouse unable to set the default themselves?

Unless you're used to IBM workstations (or old Macs), then yes, wheel mice are common - I bought my first one about 10 years ago, and I haven't seen wheelless mice sold in a long time (except for Mac users).

OTOH, touchpads and pointing sticks on laptops don't have scroll wheels. They often even don't feature middle mouse buttons, though I have never understood exactly why. And IIRC nowadays more laptops are sold than desktops.

It seems that more and more applications start to rely more or less heavily on middle mouse buttons and/or scrollwheels (Gimp and Google Earth come to mind), which is a bit annoying as my laptop is my main machine.

Of course, people can just attach a proper mouse to their laptop if/when they use it for serious graphical work. Which is a good idea anyway; a touchpad is way too imprecise.

On Thursday, September 21, 2006, 19:37:23, Roel Schroeven wrote:

OTOH, touchpads and pointing sticks on laptops don't have scroll wheels.

All laptops with touchpads I've seen offer one or more of the following: - scrollwheel emulation by dragging at the edge of touchpad (some touchpads even have a slightly separated area for this, although this is completely a software [driver] setting)
- button with up/down keys, which emulates wheel - button, which you hold and drag on the touchpad to emulate wheel

Laptops with "joystick" (or whatever that red thingy in the middle of keyboard is called) often (but not always) have a button that makes the joystick behave as a mouse wheel.

They often even don't feature middle mouse buttons, though I have never understood exactly why. And IIRC nowadays more laptops are sold than desktops.

I've yet to see a laptop with middle button, too.

Of course, people can just attach a proper mouse to their laptop if/when they use it for serious graphical work. Which is a good idea anyway; a touchpad is way too imprecise.

If your laptop has built-in blutooth adapter, I suggest you get a blutooth mouse, this way you'll be able to use it without having to attach it to anything.

On 9/21/06, Roel Schroeven wrote:

OTOH, touchpads and pointing sticks on laptops don't have scroll wheels.

Sorry to disappoint you, but here on my ASUS M6N there are two ways to emulate scrolling:

1. Middle touchpad up/down button. 2. Right and bottom borders of the touchpad surface.

Carol, actually, I don't understand your reasoning behind this question. If we disable this controller by default, the very next thing that will happen is gazillion of users asking why mousewheel scrolling doesn't work. No matter how many times you will explain it in mailing lists, on forums,in documentation -- that will just happen. And guess who will suffer from spending their precious time on explanations...

IMNSHO, removing this setting from defaults should happen only if it seriously breaks usability for "wheeless" users or even makes work in GIMP absolutely impossible for them. And this is not that case, right?

Alexandre

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 19:37 +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:

It seems that more and more applications start to rely more or less heavily on middle mouse buttons and/or scrollwheels (Gimp and Google Earth come to mind), which is a bit annoying as my laptop is my main machine.

GIMP doesn't rely on the mouse wheel for anything. It uses it if it's there and that's what the mouse wheel controller is doing. Carol is making a fuss out of nothing. Just ignore her.

Sven

i understand that it goes against the current thinking of getting things to work on a computer

This odd way of thinking: getting things done.

[worthless-chatter-snip]

i cannot give any kind of
logical reason for it and probably you should do the right thing and trash this suggestion of mine.

Yes, it is the usual email pollution.

and this suggestion is much more like house cleaning than anything else.

Speaking about house cleaning. Let me ask why does this person still hold a @gimp.org email address? It makes some people (like me) take these messages seriously at first. If it was e.g. some @gmail.com address, her opinions would be taken at face value, i.e. worse than worthless.

thank you everyone for at least considering the suggestion,

You do not ever give up, do you?

Alex Fernández.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2006 at 11:03:48AM +0200, Alex Fernandez wrote:

i cannot give any kind of
logical reason for it and probably you should do the right thing and trash this suggestion of mine.

Yes, it is the usual email pollution.

You're guilty of the same. Looking at the archives, you speak up far more often to criticize others than to contribute constructively.

Heed your own words and stop being a hypocrite.

-Yosh

Von: "Alex Fernandez"

Speaking about house cleaning. Let me ask why does this person still hold a @gimp.org email address?

Come to think of it, there's probably no reason why anyone should use a gimp.org address for arbitrary messages to the mailing lists. They are good for automated things like the bugs list or could be used for stricly project-releated stuff like release announcements or other specific roles - ftpmaster, webmaster and such.

It makes some people (like me) take these messages seriously at first. If it was e.g. some @gmail.com address, her opinions would be taken at face value, i.e. worse than worthless.

This problem would be solved then as well - all mails from a gimp.org address would be serious and important; all other messages will (have to) be taken at face value.

HTH, Michael

jernej@ena.si schreef:

On Thursday, September 21, 2006, 19:37:23, Roel Schroeven wrote:

OTOH, touchpads and pointing sticks on laptops don't have scroll wheels.

All laptops with touchpads I've seen offer one or more of the following: - scrollwheel emulation by dragging at the edge of touchpad (some touchpads even have a slightly separated area for this, although this is completely a software [driver] setting)

Yes, my laptop does have that too, and it's very practical for scrolling in large documents. But I don't think it emits WM_MOUSEWHEEL messages in Windows or the equivalent in X, since it only works in 'normal' applications. It doesn't work, for example, for zooming in or out in applications like Google Earth or similar.

If a Synaptics employee is reading this: maybe think about emiting WM_MOUSEWHEEL messages in the driver instead of what the driver does now?

My laptop also has a 4-way button for scrolling horizontally and vertically, but with the same limitation.

- button with up/down keys, which emulates wheel - button, which you hold and drag on the touchpad to emulate wheel

Ah, that sounds nice. I'm going to pay attention to those things for the next laptop I buy.

They often even don't feature middle mouse buttons, though I have never understood exactly why. And IIRC nowadays more laptops are sold than desktops.

I've yet to see a laptop with middle button, too.

If any laptop designer is reading this: I would very much prefer having a middle mouse button. IMO that would be much more useful than all those extra buttons for e-mail, browser etc.

Of course, people can just attach a proper mouse to their laptop if/when they use it for serious graphical work. Which is a good idea anyway; a touchpad is way too imprecise.

If your laptop has built-in blutooth adapter, I suggest you get a blutooth mouse, this way you'll be able to use it without having to attach it to anything.

Ah of course; I had been looking for a wireless mouse, but I was only looking at the more traditional kind. Bluetooth would be more practical indeed. My laptop doesn't have it built-in, but I already use a USB Bluetooth adapter for other things. I don't know why I didn't think of that before :)

Anyway, it's not that big a deal to me. Perhaps I shouldn't even have posted my ramblings: things get blown out of proportion way too rapidly on Internet (not that I'm accusing you of that, just speaking in general).

Sven Neumann schreef:

Hi,

On Thu, 2006-09-21 at 19:37 +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:

It seems that more and more applications start to rely more or less heavily on middle mouse buttons and/or scrollwheels (Gimp and Google Earth come to mind), which is a bit annoying as my laptop is my main machine.

GIMP doesn't rely on the mouse wheel for anything. It uses it if it's there and that's what the mouse wheel controller is doing. Carol is making a fuss out of nothing. Just ignore her.

Well, there's one thing that doesn't work without the middle mouse button: panning.

But as I said in another post, it's absolutely not a big deal to me. It might have been wiser not to give in to my desire to spout my opinion.

On Fri, 2006-09-22 at 15:01 +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:

Well, there's one thing that doesn't work without the middle mouse button: panning.

Hi!
you will be happy to hear that you can pan with a spacebar + lmb now (In cvs HEAD that is).

cheers

0> In article ,
0> Roel Schroeven ("Roel") wrote:

Roel> Sven Neumann schreef:

GIMP doesn't rely on the mouse wheel for anything. It uses it if it's there and that's what the mouse wheel controller is doing. Carol is making a fuss out of nothing. Just ignore her.

Roel> Well, there's one thing that doesn't work without the middle Roel> mouse button: panning.

I thought we were talking about wheel-less mice, not ones with no middle button at all?

Nevertheless, it is possible to scroll using scrollbars or the panning widget that appears where the scrollbars meet, without needing anything other than button 1.

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-22 at 15:01 +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote:

Well, there's one thing that doesn't work without the middle mouse button: panning.

Not in the development version. You can pan by pressing the space bar there.

Sven

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:23:38 +0200, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

Come to think of it, there's probably no reason why anyone should use a gimp.org address for arbitrary messages to the mailing lists. They are good for automated things like the bugs list or could be used for stricly project-releated stuff like release announcements or other specific roles - ftpmaster, webmaster and such.

I disagree: these gimp.org addresses are useful and I do not think that they should only be restricted to "official" communications, as long as they are used in a reasonable way.

I have received many messages from people using an address ending in gnome.org, kde.org, freedesktop.org, debian.org or several other project-related domains and I never considered them to be an official statement of the project unless they explicitely said so. Most of the time, this was a developer stating a personal opinion. When these messages were sent to mailing lists (even lists related to other projects), I don't think that anybody was confused about whether they represented some official position or not. Granted, the authors are usually careful about not using terms like "we" or "the developers" while stating a personal opinion. But I do not think that the policy for using the gimp.org addresses should be very different from what other projects are doing.

It is up to the domain owner or administrator (Yosh in our case) to decide who gets a gimp.org address and how such addresses may or may not be used. Personally, I am glad to have a gimp.org address because it allows me to handle my gimp-related mail more efficiently. It allows me to send messages from home or from work using the same sender address, ensuring that all replies will go to the same address (Reply-To is unreliable). That address is forwarded to a computer from which I can download e-mail easily regardless of where I am. I do not think that I have ever used my gimp.org e-mail address publicly in a way that would intentionally misrepresent the project and I hope to keep on using it for as long as I contribute to the project.

-Raphaël

Hi,

On Tue, 2006-09-26 at 00:29 +0200, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 11:23:38 +0200, "Michael Schumacher" wrote:

Come to think of it, there's probably no reason why anyone should use a gimp.org address for arbitrary messages to the mailing lists. They are good for automated things like the bugs list or could be used for stricly project-releated stuff like release announcements or other specific roles - ftpmaster, webmaster and such.

I disagree: these gimp.org addresses are useful and I do not think that they should only be restricted to "official" communications, as long as they are used in a reasonable way.

This argument doesn't really hold. You can get useful email addresses everywhere. You don't need a gimp.org address for being able for sending emails from home or from work using the same sender addresses. All the other benefits of the gimp.org email alias that you mentioned are pretty much void, because you can easily get another email addresses that offers the same benefits.

The point here is that Carol is continuously abusing her email address. I have asked her several times not to use it any longer but she ignored this request and continues to send mails as carol@gimp.org. Not only to this list but she has also attacked and insulted people in private emails. Multiple instances have been reported. Some to this list, others to me or to other GIMP developers. This is unacceptable behaviour and we need to do something about it. We can't (and shouldn't) stop her from expressing her opinion (or however you want to call it), but we should make sure that her words don't appear as being in any way official. If this means that we all need to stop using our gimp.org email addresses, then we should consider to do this. Or we need to find a different solution.

Sven

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 09:37:02 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

The point here is that Carol is continuously abusing her email address. I have asked her several times not to use it any longer but she ignored this request and continues to send mails as carol@gimp.org.

I'm amazed that about half the traffic of the last 10 days on this ML has been on this subject, so at the risk of perpetuating it I suggest ending it.

I, like many , gave her post more time once I noted the address. I was about to bin it instantly, which of course was the right course of action. The address made me look closer at the issue, needlessly.

I think it is useful to have project adresses like fred@redhat.com or whatever to know you are dealing with core member of the project.

If carol is abusing, as is indicated, just ask Yosh to delete the address and be done.
Let's drop the issue.

PLEASE DONT REPLY TO THIS POST.

Thz.

Von: gg@catking.net

I think it is useful to have project adresses like fred@redhat.com or whatever to know you are dealing with core member of the project.

Do I really know this from the mail address? Especially for a large company like redhat, mail adresses like fred@acme.com don't really tell me much about Fred - and any assumption made might hurt the communication. A comprehensive (and short) signature will tell me much more.

IMO it's mainly the people who currently have and use an @gimp.org address who should decide about this - and if there is an agreement, please tell the others about it. Personally, I'd be perfectly fine with an answer along "You must be crazy to bring this up at all!" as well.

HTH, Michael