On Sat, 2005-05-21 at 17:00 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

I consider to change what GIMP uses the Space key for and would like to get some user feedback on this. Currently, pressing the Space key temporarily switches to the move tool. This is sometimes convenient but I am not sure if it is all that useful.

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

Hola Sven.
I was initially very excited about the GIMP's behaviour. But I found myself mostly sticking to swapping the active tool with the default shortcuts. Sounds like a great workflow speedup in theory, but I don't really use it :/

I see it as a good thing to use spacebar for panning, helping a lot of people transitioning to the free software tool. Two thumbs up.

cheers

Sven Neumann wrote:

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I agree that the space key should be reserved for something pretty amazingly common and useful. I suppose it's also likely that panning the image is a slightly more common temporary mode of action than moving a layer, regardless of what The Other program does, though we DO have a super-handy little single-click panning tool on the image window already, so overall I don't think it's a compelling win (or loss).

--Adam

Sven Neumann wrote:

If we did that, pressing
Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

Oh, yes - please! That makes detail-working so much easier.

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it is a good idea. the descibed behaviour is really handy when editing zoomed in image. however i use the current space function too. would it be possible to use a different key for the temporary move tool?

Jakub Friedl

Hi,
I find the current use of the space key just great. If other image manipul;ation programs fail to do that, that is a lack of functionality on those programs - I see no reason to "downgrade" the GIMP just to get the look and feel of other programs. The panning funcionality on the botton right corner of the image windows works allright for me - maybe there could be a way to let that more visible.

OTOH, what about making it configurable? Is it feasible?

Regards, joao
->

On Saturday 21 May 2005 12:00, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

I consider to change what GIMP uses the Space key for and would like to get some user feedback on this. Currently, pressing the Space key temporarily switches to the move tool. This is sometimes convenient but I am not sure if it is all that useful.

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

Sven

imho it is not a problem to have "hidden" features, if knowledge of such features is not required. at least we have some bonus for people rading the manual then. however i certainly support implementing the panning feature for the space key, because it is more useful than the current switch to move tool. i can live with normal keys for switching tools, even if it requires one more keypress.

Jakub Friedl

funcionality on the botton right corner of the image windows works allright for me - maybe there could be a way to let that more visible.

That feature is really great when you need just panning, but in some cases it is not enough. I very often do retouching of zoomed photos with quick brush strokes and i do need a way to pan in the image very often. The Space is just ideal for that:
stroke, stroke, stroke.... hit space and pan... stroke stroke stroke... hits space and pan... stroke stroke stroke --- this way i do not move my mouse/tablet cursor from the comfortable working area at all and it really speeds things up.

Jakub Friedl

Adam D. Moss wrote:

Sven Neumann wrote:

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I agree that the space key should be reserved for something pretty amazingly common and useful.

To decide which operation which is most common, it would be interesting to see
some numbers comparing the two alternatives (and perhaps others). One could gather
data for which operation is most often executed by a "typical" user, sort of like a usability test.
In fact, a totally different operation might be used more than either of these alternatives.
This could be something to do on the next GIMPCon or similar.

However, the resemblance with Another image manipulation program might be important also.

Andreas R.

Jakub Friedl (lists) wrote:

imho it is not a problem to have "hidden" features, if knowledge of such features is not required. at least we have some bonus for people rading the manual then. however i certainly support implementing the panning feature for the space key, because it is more useful than the current switch to move tool. i can live with normal keys for switching tools, even if it requires one more keypress.

A simple shift-key modifier (or the like) perhaps? I use the space-move tool too, especially when placing text as these are, for me, the most common "off-size" type of layer.

A bit of a nuisance though, the fact that it is the space key sometimes causes it to put a random number of spaces in the text.... I guess that's another issue. :)

An entire new idea of keystrokes : for the keyboard shortcuts: if you press a key the normal way ,it will select the tool indefinetely alright. But if the key is pressed and held, and i do something, and then release the key, the tool reverts back to the one last used.

very helpful for quick erasing,color picking, moving, panning, selection, unfloating floating area, etc. etc. etc.... :-)

very helpful for quick erasing,color picking, moving, panning, selection, unfloating floating area, etc. etc. etc.... :-) --

would it be possible to extend dynamic shortcuts feature to this area?

On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 06:54:10PM +0530, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

An entire new idea of keystrokes : for the keyboard shortcuts: if you press a key the normal way ,it will select the tool indefinetely alright. But if the key is pressed and held, and i do something, and then release the key, the tool reverts back to the one last used.

very helpful for quick erasing,color picking, moving, panning, selection, unfloating floating area, etc. etc. etc.... :-)

That would be cool!

Bye, Ti"I want it!"no.

Hi,
sven@gimp.org (2005-05-21 at 1700.27 +0200):

Another image manipulation program, which GIMP is frequently being compared to, uses the Space key to offer the functionality that GIMP has bound to the middle mouse button: panning the image display. Since not everyone has a middle mouse button (especially on tablet pens), it

Last tablets I tried (not tablet pc, but the input device ones) seem to have tip and two side buttons (so MB1, MB2 and MB3 as per X11 terms are avaliable). OTOH, I am talking about the typical brand of tablets, dunno other brands.

As is, it is just moving from MB2 to MB1+Space, so requires two hands and still moves the pointer. Only adventage I see is when there is no MB2 at all (single button devices without any option to simulate other buttons).

might be a good idea to follow that example. If we did that, pressing Space would keep the current tool but the cursor would change to a hand symbol and one could drag the image display (not the content!) using the mouse.

Any opinions on that, anyone?

So I wonder... are there other better uses? Alternate between two tools for example? Or would there be a way to make it configurable, so anyone can bind any function to it (I ask due the "only while pressed" vs "press & release", and the lack of "move view" tool)?

GSR

Hi,
adam@gimp.org (2005-05-22 at 1710.22 +0100):

Any opinions on that, anyone?

I agree that the space key should be reserved for something pretty amazingly common and useful. I suppose it's also likely that panning the image is a slightly more common temporary mode of action than moving a layer, regardless of what The Other program does, though we DO have a super-handy little single-click panning tool on the image window already, so overall I don't think it's a compelling win (or loss).

I have been thinking, and remember some people were saying tools were running out of mod keys. Why not reserve it for those cases? Tools could use shift, control, alt and space. Or is the any technical limitation about making mod+space a mod?

Space alone obviously not, but dunno if it would give us a single key, or another level. Still one mod more is a win, a family of them a bigger one, specially if it makes all the required operations to be based in one or two keys, never three.

GSR

On Monday 23 May 2005 20:08, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

Laxminarayan Kamath writes:

An entire new idea of keystrokes : for the keyboard shortcuts: if you press a key the normal way ,it will select the tool indefinetely alright. But if the key is pressed and held, and i do something, and then release the key, the tool reverts back to the one last used.

Sounds interesting. Probably worth trying. Anyone?

I like the idea.
I had never looked at this part of the code. I believe that with Gimp contexts it is possible to "push" any tool with the current code already?

JS
->

Sven

On 5/23/05, Laxminarayan Kamath wrote:

An entire new idea of keystrokes : for the keyboard shortcuts: if you press a key the normal way ,it will select the tool indefinetely alright. But if the key is pressed and held, and i do something, and then release the key, the tool reverts back to the one last used.

EH ! I forgot to mention how the feature could help the current thread's problem:
If this feature is implemented, "m" can be pushed for what is now for space. and space can be pused for panning!

Jakub Friedl (lists) wrote:

it is a good idea. the descibed behaviour is really handy when editing zoomed in image. however i use the current space function too. would it be possible to use a different key for the temporary move tool?

The genius behind the choice of space key is that it can easily be hit (on all keyboard layouts!) without looking away from the screen...

--adam

The genius behind the choice of space key is that it can easily be hit (on all keyboard layouts!) without looking away from the screen...

exactly, and this is(imho, of course) most useful for panning

Jakub Friedl

Sven Neumann writes:

I consider to change what GIMP uses the Space key for and would like to get some user feedback on this. Currently, pressing the Space key temporarily switches to the move tool.

Spacebar to switch temporarily to move is awfully useful. I didn't know about it until this discussion, but I've often wanted something like that -- I'm forever switching between move and something else, for instance when I'm creating lots of different text layers and need to position each one. If you change spacebar to pan, I hope you'll consider investing some other key with this "temporary move tool" meaning. Now that I've known about it for a couple days I'm already sorry to have to give it up!

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse? (That would be understandable.) Or is this just because ... that other program does it that way, and its users are used to it?

...Akkana

Akkana Peck wrote:

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse? (That would be understandable.) Or is this just because ... that other program does it that way, and its users are used to it?

My laptop, and I suspect other laptops too, doesn't have a middle mouse button. Not that it matters that much, since I can attach a real mouse when I want to do serious graphic work.

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse button? Maybe tablet users who don't want to put down the stylus and switch to a mouse?

i do not have - a tablet and a notebook

Jakub Friedl

Hello,

Why not use another key (or key combination) for that function ? Maybe it's not Photoshop's behavior, but Gimp's not really just a Photoshop's clone...

Pierre-Alexis. ______________

--- Sven Neumann a écrit:

Hi,

Akkana Peck writes:

Spacebar to switch temporarily to move is awfully

useful. I didn't

know about it until this discussion, but I've

often wanted something

like that

See, that is exactly my point. The feature is not discoverable and it
might make sense to exchange it for something which is probably at
least as useful but wider known.

I'm forever switching between move and something

else,

for instance when I'm creating lots of different

text layers and

need to position each one.

That's just a missing feature in the text tool. Of course the text
tool should allow you to move text layers.

Do a lot of gimp users not have a middle mouse

button? Maybe tablet

users who don't want to put down the stylus and

switch to a mouse?

(That would be understandable.) Or is this just

because ... that

other program does it that way, and its users are

used to it?

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key
with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse
buttons. But perhaps this needs actual user testing.

Sven

Because I tried it and I made the experience that it pressing a key with the second hand disturbs the workflow less than to switch mouse buttons.

agreed

Jakub Friedl