Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came

off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy came

off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the ropes.

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very same thread --
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack, save for our friend /u/Unchayned here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex

and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only, but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know if people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not, don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with you.

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can pinpoint the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the ropes.

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very same thread --
https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/ -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging a release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the next version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart attack, save for our friend /u/Unchayned
here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex

and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for your actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself only, but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to, because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team, since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the thread:

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to become a GIMP dev?
Jesus..."

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective. -C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know

if

people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's

not,

don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as

much

of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with you.

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi

wrote:

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if

they

approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your

behavior

is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing

lists

you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two

other

problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can

pinpoint

the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use

in

GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say

that

lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's

"mindset

of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I

said

in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying

"Facts...

Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the ropes.

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking

3

minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized

the

official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very same thread --

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/

-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes

between

versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging

a

release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the

next

version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart

attack,

save for our friend /u/Unchayned here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex

and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for

your

actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself

only,

but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something

they

are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should

have

kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing

things

that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,

which

makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest

exchange is

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq

from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/. While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What

triggered

Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than

random

ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade

hundreds

of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should

refactor

GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).

Regardless,

instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release

because, bla

bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying

that I had

no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither

is he

more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just

because

of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,

which is

what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with

people

that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be

honest

sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I

didn't say

nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally

different

beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I

started

getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked

around

Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact

same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough

people had

dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",

or using

"we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,

because

what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome

free

stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I

found out

that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical

ways.

This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a

developer but

not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending

to be a

developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.

It's easy

to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate

GIMP

users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really

talk to,

because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome

project

you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a

critic

into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,

pretending

to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the

dev team,

since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled

assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since

I would

assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you

guys

are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for

someone who

either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 6:25 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Nope.

Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

I'm afraid you are conflating "criticism" with "purposedly being a true pain in the neck".

If people are not happy with unsheduled releases, I would (naively?) expect them to begin with stating that they think this is wrong and then, politely or not so much, asking why that is the case and what is the reason for not switching to rolling. You never really asked. You started the conversation with a claim that we should pay attention to users (like we don't, contrary to a mountain of evidence) and that we tell them to f*** off. What did you expect to happen next?

(For the record, I personally would prefer the rolling model for GIMP, but it is currently not quite realistic. Besides, so far, most people who spoke up seem to be happy with the new release model where new things get ported to the stable branch and then released every month or two.)

In almost a week of this ongoing "conversation" you still haven't asked why we don't do rolling and scheduled releases. This is exactly how much constructive your "criticism" is. And I'm still willing to explain why, publicly.

I'm only replying to this, because here you are again pretending that we (or me personally) attack critics. We don't. All that happened here is that I was sarcastic over yet another case of someone being unnecessarily nasty to the point of insult.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it: criticism is welcome and studied, but insults, shouting, and use of expletives aren't. Please learn the difference. We cannot have a constructive conversation until you do.

Alex

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth explaining things.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about it".

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R wrote:

Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset... like way upset. :)

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff users asked for was done).

Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism, and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to control your own temper in these threads.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.

You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.

I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth explaining things.

You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about it".

Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not on this mailing list.

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not just GIMP culture, that's life in general.

-C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R wrote:

From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the thread:

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to become a GIMP dev?
Jesus..."

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective. -C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't

know if

people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that

they

know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior

is

appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's

not,

don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as

much

of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree

with

you.

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi

wrote:

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with you. I guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in case they have the courage to approve my message or at least

reply--if they

approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your

behavior

is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing

lists

you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't

as

much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two

other

problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can

pinpoint

the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to

use in

GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to

say that

lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's

"mindset

of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I

said

in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying

"Facts...

Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the ropes.

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend

shocking 3

minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining,

and

patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person

characterized the

official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the very same thread --

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/

-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes

between

versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of

tagging a

release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the

next

version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart

attack,

save for our friend /u/Unchayned

here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Alex

and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for

your

actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself

only,

but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about

something they

are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to

releases

we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should

have

kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos

verbal

abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that

he's

a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing

things

that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,

which

makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):

I've

had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest

exchange is

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq

from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/

.

While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What

triggered

Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than

random

ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade

hundreds

of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should

refactor

GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).

Regardless,

instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release

because, bla

bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying

that I had

no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither

is he

more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just

because

of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,

which is

what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas

with people

that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to

be honest

sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I

didn't say

nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally

different

beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I

started

getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre

attacked around

Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg

guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact

same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough

people had

dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",

or using

"we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"

being

important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,

because

what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome

free

stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I

found out

that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in

non-technical ways.

This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a

developer but

not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending

to be a

developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.

It's easy

to relate to people that agree with you, they're already

passionate GIMP

users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really

talk to,

because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an

awesome project

you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a

critic

into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,

pretending

to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the

dev team,

since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled

assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop

Alexandre

from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me

since I would

assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)

you guys

are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for

someone who

either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software that merits thanks, not b1tching.  If you don't like it, downgrade to photoshop.

And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else that's the problem.

If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror. lol

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are dicks, too.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R wrote:

Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset... like way upset. :)

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff users asked for was done).

Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism, and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to control your own temper in these threads.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.

You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.

I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth explaining things.

You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about it".

Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not on this mailing list.

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not just GIMP culture, that's life in general.

-C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R wrote:

From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the thread:

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to become a GIMP dev?
Jesus..."

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective. -C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't

know if

people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that

they

know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your

behavior is

appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If

it's not,

don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be

as much

of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree

with

you.

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.

Alex

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi

wrote:

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone

who

doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me, many people have the same problem with

you. I

guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and

--in

case they have the courage to approve my message or at least

reply--if they

approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your

behavior

is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing

lists

you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people

get

emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me

don't as

much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two

other

problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can

pinpoint

the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg

guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just

wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact

same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to

use in

GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to

say that

lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's

"mindset

of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing

I said

in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying

"Facts...

Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off

the

ropes.

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend

shocking 3

minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,

mansplaining, and

patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person

characterized the

official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about

the

very same thread --

https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/

-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes

between

versions.

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of

tagging a

release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for

the next

version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart

attack,

save for our friend /u/Unchayned

here."

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think

our

interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven

wrong.

Alex

and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility

for your

actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for

yourself only,

but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoudine@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a

have a

conversation with people who come with preconceptions about

something they

are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn

before

drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to

releases

we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I

should have

kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos

verbal

abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that

he's

a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and

doing things

that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)

role, which

makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):

I've

had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest

exchange is

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq

from the Reddit thread at

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.

While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.

What triggered

Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than

random

ones, because people like IT administrators might have to

upgrade hundreds

of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should

refactor

GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).

Regardless,

instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release

because, bla

bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying

that I had

no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but

neither is he

more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:

just because

of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,

which is

what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas

with people

that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to

be honest

sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I

didn't say

nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally

different

beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I

started

getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre

attacked around

Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that

alexlg guy

came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.

Just wanted to

tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the

exact same

ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another

thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough

people had

dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on

something.

Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff

like

"oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about

it", or using

"we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"

being

important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow

users, because

what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create

awesome free

stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I

found out

that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in

non-technical ways.

This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a

developer but

not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while

pretending to be a

developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned

from

communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only

he's

doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.

It's easy

to relate to people that agree with you, they're already

passionate GIMP

users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to

really talk to,

because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an

awesome project

you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a

critic

into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,

pretending

to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for

the dev team,

since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled

assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop

Alexandre

from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me

since I would

assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)

you guys

are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with

this

behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for

someone who

either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is. I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated? No? Then stop it. :)

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:35 PM Niccolo Brogi wrote:

Not so, I listened to what you said. Like I said many times, I change my mind like a flag in the middle of the storm, and you do have a positive attitude to not stop this natural process of mine.

You ended your reply with "you were a dick",

1. He didn't end his reply with that. The word was in the middle of his email.

2. He said "it was a dick move", he didn't call you one.

If you continue this well established pattern of knowingly misrepresenting what people tell you, I'm afraid we will have to force-end this conversation.

Alex

I said that I have 3 more. It's 4 or us so far, then.

What falsehoods have I been spreading?

Because copy/pasting your own quotes to you from Reddit, which are still there, is a good use of anyone's time.

Let's start with this: "by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off"

Did you say that? Did you edit it away after the fact? Don't feign innocence, you're not convincing anyone.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 5:39 PM C R wrote:

I said spreading falsehoods about GIMP was a "dick move", and it is. I ended my last reply with "look in the mirror" as in, look how you're treating people in the GIMP community. Is that how you want to be treated? No? Then stop it. :)

--
Niccolo.

I second that. Thanks to everyone who makes GIMP awesome.

No need to use Photoshop instead though, just be constructive.

If you see yourself as part of the community, you realise you're talking with friends working for a common goal. This is the attitude that motivates change to make GIMP better for everyone. A bit of patience helps too. :)

-C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:12 PM Chris Moller wrote:

I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software that merits thanks, not b1tching. If you don't like it, downgrade to photoshop.
_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

I don't normally pile on, lurking for years is my favorite stance, but I have to say that I love Alexandre, he's been a wonderful asset to GIMP and I love the software. Years ago I had requests for what I thought were improvements to GIMP and they've all shown up in the software plus more I never thought of. Yay!!! Much love and (((hugs))) for the whole team.

Patrick

On 11/15/18 9:14 AM, C R via gimp-developer-list wrote:

I second that. Thanks to everyone who makes GIMP awesome.

No need to use Photoshop instead though, just be constructive.

If you see yourself as part of the community, you realise you're talking with friends working for a common goal. This is the attitude that motivates change to make GIMP better for everyone. A bit of patience helps too. :)

-C

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:12 PM Chris Moller wrote:

I haven't a clue if the GIMP devs are paid for doing it or if it's just something they do but, regardless, it's a fabulous piece of software that merits thanks, not b1tching. If you don't like it, downgrade to photoshop.
_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Hi,

I’m nobody in particular, I don’t even use GIMP, but for some reason I’m tuned in to this conversation and haven’t bothered unsubscribing ... BUT might I offer a suggestion:

1 — it seems to me the most relevant points are as follows: — it is vital to be able to critique the product in order to argue a case for improvement
— emotional disagreements in such critique should be reduced as much as possible or removed entirely
— the public image of your product should not suffer as a consequence of such communication
— no valid suggestion arising from such critique should be missed, as this constitutes missed opportunity

2 — the reason why this seems to be occurring ( from my outsider perspective ), is because you’re using far too open systems for everything ... ie: it’s one thing to be open source with your code, it’s another entirely to be open with your communications, as this allows anyone to say anything for any reason and in any form they want, all of which creates infinite possibility for error ... and here I am, a total stranger, with no particular interest or involvement as a developer nor user, demonstrating that fact ( though hopefully doing so in a way that might solve your problem )

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group, and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post, thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond an accepted threshold/limit.

Whomever it was that wrote something like “this reflects badly on GIMP and GIMP developers” is correct, as an outsider I can assure you it does, because even if they’re not guilty of any one or another accusation, the fact remains that I ( as an outsider ) shouldn’t be seeing any of this happening in the first place, and the very best case scenario I can attribute to it, is that no one involved in the development has been bothered to fix what should arguably be a reasonably easy issue to fix.

There are so many better communication platforms out there than a group email, I cannot understand why you’d be using it for a software development project in which so many people can just write whatever they please.

Currently I’m writing a series of books, I’m using some software for that, and the developers have a nicely organised forum for it ... they’ve been around nowhere near as long as GIMP, their budget is SFA, and yet it’s rare to see anything get even remotely impolite on their site ... now maybe that’s because writers are nicer people? Maybe it’s because we are used to writing and therefore more precise with our language, but whatever the reason, I cannot imagine preferring them to use this kind of group email over the system they do use ... and even that forum software isn’t very advanced versus other open source options.

Your software should be open source, but your conversations should not be open slather.

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 at 23:22, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list < gimp-web-list@gnome.org> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.

Alexandre

чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi :

Hello.

TLDR:
Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things

that

are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.

FULL:

A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had

a

couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq

from the Reddit thread at
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.

While

it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade

hundreds

of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless, instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because,

bla

bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I

had

no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just

because

of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with

people

that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different beast.

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked

around

Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy

came

off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to

tell

you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread

entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something. Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using

"we"

in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that

he's

not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is

bad

not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a

developer

to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities

just

because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing

a

horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk

to,

because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome

project

you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev

team,

since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.

Niccolo. --
Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-web-list mailing list
gimp-web-list@gnome.org
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-web-list

Regards & Best Wishes, Trevor Alexander Rose aka Galactic President Mobile:
+61 4 7880 0709 Skype: trevor_alexander_rose Sent from my flat handheld
screen thingy

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group, and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post, thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP. People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields

and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount

of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi

...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out loud.

How sad is this culture you've created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP. People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields

and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.

You'll pull through though. I believe in you! I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.

(thread muted)

-C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi

Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R wrote:

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi

...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out loud.

How sad is this culture you've created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP. People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory

fields and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

Am 16.11.2018 um 12:46 C R via gimp-developer-list :

Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.

You'll pull through though. I believe in you! I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.

Thank you for your sarcasm. And most of all, thanks for staying away.

I can’t believe, how you and others on this list, treat people, who don‘t share your point of view.

Simone Karin Lehmann - former contributor to GIMP and founder and maintainer of the GIMP-on-OSX-project.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:42 Niccolo Brogi

Why, Alexandre causes trauma..? I thought he was nice.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 12:40 PM C R wrote:

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi ve created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP. People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory

fields and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 2:47 PM C R wrote:

Well clearly he was harassing you with his facts and sarcasm.

You'll pull through though. I believe in you! I've got to go now though. Have fun with whatever this is.

I'm afraid I've been giving a bad example how to deal with abusive users. Let's not repeat my mistakes.

Alex

hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.

The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply says

"No GTK 3..?“

and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He than wrote

"Ah, I see. Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“

With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an inappropriate way.

After Alex joins in with his remark that…

"We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“

Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying "we don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.

This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground for further hitting on Niccolo.

Well, and so it came …

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial product or shut up.

And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...

Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I couldn’t stand it not to write it.

BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site gimp.lisanet.de offline.

Simone Karin

Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list :

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi

...in the meantime, I'm getting emails from people that see the whole thing exactly like me, and I assume fear harassment and won't say it out loud.

How sad is this culture you've created.

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:50 AM C R wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next GIMP. People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have to deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side, even in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields

and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

It is very sad that this exchange of opinions ended up this way. GIMP is an open source software and is developed by volunteers, so time is better spent in developing than fighting. I like timebox releases as Ubuntu, but as said by Alexander after 2.10 release they found a new development model that give a good compromises. This decision was taken by developers community and was open to everyone, but I think that developers community that constantly dedicates its time to the project has more say in relation to the others. If someone wants to make his contribution in terms of decisions, perhaps he should first devote his time to development and to the activities needed to carry out the project. This is just my opinion and I do not seek approval or dissent.

Il giorno ven 16 nov 2018 alle ore 23:28 Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list ha scritto:

I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses

the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial product or shut up.

This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear unwillingness to admit that.

Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did. Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my sentiment.

I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away from the project.

This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as you see fit, over and out.

Have a good one, ciao.

Niccolo

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann wrote:

hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.

The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply

says

"No GTK 3..?“

and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He than wrote

"Ah, I see.
Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“

With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an inappropriate way.

After Alex joins in with his remark that…

"We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“

Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying

"we

don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong,

though.

This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground for further hitting on Niccolo.

Well, and so it came …

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and

either

has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial product or shut up.

And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...

Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I couldn’t stand it not to write it.

BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site gimp.lisanet.de offline.

Simone Karin

Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org>:

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next

GIMP.

People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have

to

deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side,

even

in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields

and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.
_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Now when reading you people, I can understand why is it that Guido stepped down from being the Python head. And why the GIMP dev team really have an option of being more recluse -

I should tell you that I'd be in the same category of Prokoudine - mention GIMP as "us", although my code contribution have been negligible over the years. believe it or not, there is more work to be done on a project like this than writing the lines of code. Acknowledging the sheer amount of work that it takes for refactoring
or adding some of the features on the project as it is now, based only on the work of very few volunteers is part of what makes the project progress.

I have friends that poke me with the same insistence you were taking on that reddit thread about new features, release, or GIMP releases - and, believe it: it does really piss one off, if one only knows what is involved.

In my case, the persons were calling me that I should "talk the GIMP team to get the 2.10 version on Ubuntu (18.04 version) , and somehow implying it was GIMP teams fault that it would not run out of the box there. Snap packages, or 3rd party repositories were not enough for them. Explaining it is not GIMP volunteers responsibility which version is included or not in Ubuntu was as impossible to them as it seems to be to explain you that there can't be date-mandated releases in GIMP project.

If you can't see in how many levels saying "Ubuntu has been having scheduled releases for years, are you saying that GIMP is some complicated than a whole operating system?" is incorrect, it is really hard to think of ways of explaining it you'd find polite. (I wrote on that comparison bellow - it is really so out of scale, I don't feel like I could express 30% of the differences)

So humans are faulty in communicating in a way that makes everyone happy, and I am sorry if the way Prokoudine put his statements made you feel as bad as bringing this mail thread here. But really, there is a reason why the answers
on "why is not feature X included already" or "why will it take so long", "why there is no Windows/Mac/Linux Distro Du Jour ready to install from the site" is answered with some impatience by _us_.

The fact is that all these things demand work. Hard work. And all things in GIMP are made by volunteers. Including not only development, but also documenting, making the news posts to the web sites, translating, _and_ talking to users that reach the eam and managing their expectations.

Ultimately, when it is stated that the project can't make scheduled releases by one that _do_ _participate_ of the project core community, and there is still insistence in the point, it is really complicated to go forward on the discussion
without crossing the line - and I myself often do cross it - and I excuse Alexandre if he did cross it, although my reading on that thread is that it was still ok - since the posts he was replying too were in no means reasonable.

It is true that adding new tools, or filters, or themes can make part of intermediate, short releases, and that is what the team has agreed upon: these are being made during the micro version of the 2.10.x series, and there is a much shorter cicle for these releases than for minor version, or, as is the case, major version changes. The fact is that the changes that took place from 2.8 to 2.10, and the ones that are getting in place from 2.10 to 3.0 simply CAN NOT be partial! You either have the whole software ported to the new underlying technology, or you have a mess that can barely function. One can't have GTK 2.x code in one part of the 2000+ C source files, and GTK 3.x code on other part of those.
Now, does the above paragraph sounds "impolite"? I'd guess so. Still, it deals only with facts.

And finally, let's move to your very unreasonable statement trying to compare GIMP with Ubuntu project above, and let's try to put in perspective why these are not reasonable.

So, Ubuntu is a project that encompass 10.000+ software packages. As an outsider to the project, it is easy to estimate they feature a couple hundred (had to google some - and only could get some numbers for 2008, there seems to be 50 core contributors, and 340 packagers at the time) More over, the work they do on the packages is made on top of the work made on the Debian project - so, for a lot of those packages, the work is mostly done - and I am quite sure it works the other way around: Debian packages that are based on whatever packaging job is done on Ubuntu, and more than a handful of people who makes some packages for both systems) Some of the authors of those 10000+ packages certainly contribute downstream and do the packaging to Debian/Ubuntu. But what they have to do to ensure new releases each 6 months of Ubuntu, is mostly to ensure those packages work together, picking a version as new as possible when the date is due. And that is already a lot of work. Sure, there are projects that are ubuntu specific, and probably with people with full time-jobs developing those. (I don't know if there is such a large project remaining, but they did do Unit and Mir, for example), And it the system release date was close and one of these would not have a "new release"? Surprise: the release would be done with whatever version _was_ _ready_ . So if you can't see the difference of a software project and a project that distributes packaged software, maybe you can see the difference in community and volunteers size? and how much non-directly-technical work has to go in a project the size of Ubuntu to keep that? And then, you add that most enterprise Ubuntu users will need an IT support contract, and they will hire canonical for that - and whoever canonical pays to keep it running in their clients _is_ _working_ _paid_ _for_ _fultime_ in the Ubuntu project.. which is a Software collection. Ah, by the way, and those large development projects they had inside Ubuntu? Mir and Unity? They had to drop it. Even with full time people, and hundreds of active volunteers, keeping big software projects evolving is another beast.

Now skip to GIMP, you ave a loose community of about 50-100 names who over the years have chosen to refer to GIMP as "we". That is over more than 20 years. At any given moment the number of _active_ contributors is quite less than that, and of active _code_ contributors smaller yet. In fact, pick any 2 month window over the last 15 years or so (the time I've been around, and Prokoudine was already part of this community when I joined), you won't find more than 10 people committing code to GIMP tree. That is: at most 10 people - and that is maximum check the logs, you will see most commits come from 4-5 people, sometimes 1 or 2. some of which have been dedicating themselves to this project for the better part of 20 years. Not one of those people earn anything for that. But for sparse GSoC or similar projects does one gets paid for working on GIMP - that is: one have to work for a living, _and_ contribute to this project.

Now, participation is free. Just do "git clone " and send in some patches. With 10-12 hours a week dedication it won't be long before one can really help to speed up GIMP 3.0 release. You or any of your friends who felt harmed by answers in the tone of "we can't do anything to speed it up" is certainly welcome to join us.

Or you can go back to reddit, and start over. Try Debian - they also don't have release dates.

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 22:12, Massimo Fidanza via gimp-developer-list wrote:

It is very sad that this exchange of opinions ended up this way. GIMP is an open source software and is developed by volunteers, so time is better spent in developing than fighting. I like timebox releases as Ubuntu, but as said by Alexander after 2.10 release they found a new development model that give a good compromises. This decision was taken by developers community and was open to everyone, but I think that developers community that constantly dedicates its time to the project has more say in relation to the others. If someone wants to make his contribution in terms of decisions, perhaps he should first devote his time to development and to the activities needed to carry out the project. This is just my opinion and I do not seek approval or dissent.

Il giorno ven 16 nov 2018 alle ore 23:28 Niccolo Brogi via gimp-developer-list ha scritto:

I think this sums up my (and many other people's) sentiment perfectly:

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses

the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and either has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial product or shut up.

This seems to be the culture of he GIMP project--despite a clear unwillingness to admit that.

Personally, I felt like telling you that that is wrong, because GIMP is such an amazing piece of software that it would deserve better--and I did. Many people won't do that, so don't think a lot of people don't share my sentiment.

I will acknowledge that what we've been talking about is not only how Alexandre sees fit to treat both newbies and critics, but how the whole GIMP team does. That's fine with me. Hopefully this will not drive too many people--including those who would contribute greatly like Simone did--away from the project.

This discussion will not change anything, so you guys take this feedback as you see fit, over and out.

Have a good one, ciao.

Niccolo

On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM Simone Karin Lehmann wrote:

hhmm, well, just reading this whole thread here on the gimp-devel mailing list and on reddit, I really have to admit that Niccolo is right.

The very first posting of Niccolo on reddit, that I can find is an answer to another user about a new version for Arch Linux, in which he simply

says

"No GTK 3..?“

and getting an answer from that user, that Version 3.0 will bring it. He than wrote

"Ah, I see.
Is there a release date? I've heard that it already works well…“

With all respect to anybody on this list and to Alexandre in special, I really can’t see any sign of ranting about GIMP or complaining in an inappropriate way.

After Alex joins in with his remark that…

"We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“

Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are better than solely saying

"we

don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong,

though.

This, IMO, must have something triggered in Alex’s mind, because after quoting only a few words out of context, he confronted Nicollo with a totally new topic Nicollo never mentioned, just to compare this topic to his quote, only to force him to justify his opinion and laying the ground for further hitting on Niccolo.

Well, and so it came …

To me it seems, that if a user, who doesn't contribute to GIMP, and uses the slightest words of critisism of GIMP will easily run into a situation where he gets told between the lines, that he’s a dumb user, who doesn’t know anything about coding and therefor has no right to complain and

either

has to use GIMP as it is, submit a patch, simply should „downgrade“ to a well known commercial product or shut up.

And sorry to say so, it's not only Alex...

Although I know, that my posting here won’t change the situation, I couldn’t stand it not to write it.

BTW, this attitude was one of the reasons I’ve taken my site gimp.lisanet.de offline.

Simone Karin

Am 16.11.2018 um 12:40 schrieb C R via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org>:

Happy you've found that support group you were looking for. :)

Wishing you a speedy trauma recovery, -C

On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 11:04 Niccolo Brogi wrote:

As someone who has worked many years alongside (at the desk next to) customer service reps, I can verify that no amount of organisation or pleasantries can quell the entitlement of anyone who thinks you owe them something. Be that x feature in GIMP, or x release date for the next

GIMP.

People are very much the same in that regard, and it's crushing to have

to

deal with it all the time.

People can be banned from the mailing list if they make too much of a fuss, but I have to say Alexander's way of handling things is a nearly flawless mix of not taking any shit (which, after all, why should GIMP contribs suffer this after donating time to provide free software for the world?) and being concise and helpful to those who approach with a constructive attitude (as part of the community).

We have not always seen eye to eye on things, but I'm always learning stuff about handing trollish behaviour from this mailing list, thanks primarily to Alex, also recognising the behaviour in myself and doing my best to avoid making the same mistakes as people who can only complain rather than be helpful (Alex PMs me if I go to far to the ranty side,

even

in his defence). So that definitely isn't broken.

Alex saves us on a regular basis from having to deal with trolls on all our media platforms while keeping all ports of communication open for our users.

Every project should have one, but he's ours! ;)

Just my thoughts. -C
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018, 08:17 Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-developer-list < gimp-developer-list@gnome.org wrote:

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 6:40 Trevor Rose tarose.trevor@gmail.com:

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email

group,

and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each

post,

thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST

IMPORTANTLY

you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields

and

filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some

amount of

abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion

beyond

an accepted threshold/limit.

Hi Trevor,

I'm afraid I'm not a big believer in technical constraints as means to manage a community. We have a history of making it difficult for people to
contribute to GIMP in any way. I would hesitate to make it even harder.

Your suggestion boils down to making initial communication more complicated
while, indeed, more structured. It also seems to suggest some sort of pre-moderation which puts a heavier burden on those of us involved with moderation.

So mailing lists are a tool that keeps communication open enough and takes
just about the right amount of time to keep our sanity at the cost of rare
outbursts like this one.

Having said all that, I would still appreciate examples of what you consider superior communication channels.

Alex

_______________________________________________

gimp-developer-list mailing list List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

--

Niccolo.
_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г., 23:19 Simone Karin Lehmann simone@lisanet.de:

…

"We don't do "release dates" :) We release when it's ready.“

Niccolo still answers, IMO, very politely

and explains why, in his opinion, he thinks planned release dates are

better than solely saying "we don't do release dates“ and explains how a smiley at the end of this sentence sounds to him and finally admitting that he might be wrong, though.

The problem here is that you are reading a reply that he later edited to look nicer, after I replied to him.

The original comment suggested that by refusing to set dates to releases we tell users to f*** off (I'm redacting this here, he didn't). And there was no admission that he could be wrong.

Look, Simone, there are not many active contributors to GIMP, but those who are, me including, spend upwards of 20 hours a week on this project (maybe even more for some). It's like having another job (or another family).

And since my job is pretty much about communication between users and developers, I find his repeated suggestion that we don't care about users incredibly offensive, which I told him about several times, and he never had the dignity to apologize (which would resolve the conflict completely). On the contrary, instead of apologizing, he did his best to discredit my involvement, not to mention all the expletives.

It's your choice to protect an abusive person though.

Alex