On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit from this.

Good. But we aren't.

Alex

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

Guys, I respect your work and I like Gimp a lot but this

I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

is how you end up being a dead project.

2017-05-07 13:14 GMT+02:00 Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list :

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

http://ror6ax.github.io/

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 2:31 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Guys, I respect your work and I like Gimp a lot but this

I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

is how you end up being a dead project.

GIMP has a copy of its Git repo on GitHub, made by GNOME folks.

https://github.com/GNOME/gimp

There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from those few.

In my experience (that is, closely following GIMP development for the past 12+ years), people who are motivated to make a positive change have no problem cloning from git.gnome.org and sending patches. Of course, that's just _my_ experience. _You_ can run your own study and come up with different results. I dare you to do so :)

Alex

There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from those few.

Oh, and for the record, in 2 or 3 cases when changes looked vaguely interesting, I actually tried contacting those developers. Noone ever got back to me.

Can you see non-responsive people being a vital part of a successful community? Because I can't.

Alex

It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc. You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do. Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off". I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply. Apparently, I have to bring sacrifices and wait until the moon is in right shape. You are forgetting that there are loads of teams out there doing open source development. About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in vi or something.

Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

2017-05-07 13:53 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine :

There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from those few.

Oh, and for the record, in 2 or 3 cases when changes looked vaguely interesting, I actually tried contacting those developers. Noone ever got back to me.

Can you see non-responsive people being a vital part of a successful community? Because I can't.

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

http://ror6ax.github.io/

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 8:04 AM, gregory grey wrote:

. There is plethora
of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Oh gosh, and they are so much worse in real life!!

carol

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:04 PM, gregory grey wrote:

It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc. You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do. Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply.

Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult topics on the list barely ever take off?

About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.

If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in vi or something.

GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few things that are more hip than node.js.

Personally, whenever I actually open a source code file (which is maybe once or twice a year), I do it in Sublime Text.

What's your _actual_ point? Do you have one?

Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else

Nor can I.

who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.

If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who despise Vi?

Alex

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Carol Spears wrote:

. There is plethora
of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Oh gosh, and they are so much worse in real life!!

Carol,

You were banned from the list (and the project) after assaulting a user on the bugtracker while being a team member.

If you think now is a great time to have a reminiscence of good ol' times, I kindly suggest you reconsider.

Alex

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:04 PM, gregory grey wrote:

It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc. You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do. Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply.

Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult topics on the list barely ever take off?

Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy to see an email from potential contributor.

Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?

Emails are at least searchable.

I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.

About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.

Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer as a reason to dump Github idea. You are blaming. I'm underlining your position, along with it's consequences, that's all.

If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in vi or something.

GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few things that are more hip than node.js.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif

Personally, whenever I actually open a source code file (which is maybe once or twice a year), I do it in Sublime Text.

What's your _actual_ point? Do you have one?

That Gimp project is unfriendly, here I spelled it for you.

Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else

Nor can I.

who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.

If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who despise Vi?

Turning tables #3.

You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a page to see the update, etc,etc.

But that is for hipsters, of course. Nothing to do with giving people idea what how than can contribute.

Alex
_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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http://ror6ax.github.io/

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult topics on the list barely ever take off?

Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy to see an email from potential contributor.

I do no make infrastructure decisions. Also, thank you for acknowledging it's a flame. Next step is to acknowledge your responsibility for it.

Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?

Because it works for us.

I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.

That's OK. I'm sure you'll find your talent useful elsewhere.

About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.

Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer as a reason to dump Github idea.

You completely misunderstood my reasoning.

GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few things that are more hip than node.js.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif

How very mature.

who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.

If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who despise Vi?

Turning tables #3.

You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a page to see the update, etc,etc.

Why do you think any of that would make a huge difference for our particular project? What actual programming/releasing experience with GIMP do you have?

Alex

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 02:04:04PM +0200, gregory grey wrote:

It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc.

[...]

and your reply is basically "f*** off".

[..]

who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Who is the jerk here?

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

There's an American expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

GIMP development has been working well for a lot of years and I see exactly zero reason to change something that works well. I don't always agree with minor bits of what the devs decide to do, but THEY'RE doing the work and proposing fundamental changes that add nothing to the coolness of GIMP helps no one.

Chris Moller

On 05/07/17 07:14, Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

Using Github is infrastructure decision if there is one.

Why did you respond to question about it then?

I have experience releasing platforms consisting of dozens of complex components in CI\CD fashion, developed by hundreds of ppl.

All I mentioned contributes to speed of releases immensely.

2017-05-07 15:08 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine :

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

Yes, our email communication needs to improve. However, do I really need to bring up our private email exchange where I explained to you that most dev conversations take place on IRC and that the difficult topics on the list barely ever take off?

Apparently you are not too busy to participate in flame, but too busy to see an email from potential contributor.

I do no make infrastructure decisions. Also, thank you for acknowledging it's a flame. Next step is to acknowledge your responsibility for it.

Last time I've used IRC was like 10 years ago. Another archaic tech I(anyone else willing to participate) have to use because why exactly?

Because it works for us.

I'm not planning to work on GIMP any more, thank you very much.

That's OK. I'm sure you'll find your talent useful elsewhere.

About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

Blaming is _exactly_ what was sorely missing on the list. Thank you.

Turning tables #2. You pointed to 3 times you did not get the answer as a reason to dump Github idea.

You completely misunderstood my reasoning.

GitHub is full of developers who use Vi. Stuff like node-x11 is actually written by dedicated Vi users, and I can think of a very few things that are more hip than node.js.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/3h5pe45FM9qUM/giphy.gif

How very mature.

who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

Name-calling was sorely missing on this list too. Again, thank you.

If you are done with that, what are, in your opinion, the actual advantages of relying on GitHub other than it's full of hip people who despise Vi?

Turning tables #3.

You know, issues, project boards, UI what does not require reloading a page to see the update, etc,etc.

Why do you think any of that would make a huge difference for our particular project? What actual programming/releasing experience with GIMP do you have?

Alex
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http://ror6ax.github.io/

Dear Alexandre,

I agree with Gregory that your original reply to the original suggestion was phrased too laconically, and came across as rude, impolite, and unfriendly. You should try to improve such replies in the future, in order to make potential contributors feel more welcome.

I've written about it many years ago here: http://www.gimpusers.com/forums/gimp-developer/5878-rudeness-on-gimp-devel-and-bugzilla-was-re-tools

----

As a side note regarding IRC - old does not necessarily imply it is bad (see http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=two-kinds-of-fools ) and one can normally find some unified clients to communicate on more than one service.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

On Sun, 7 May 2017 16:08:24 +0300 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Dear Alexandre,

I agree with Gregory that your original reply to the original suggestion was phrased too laconically, and came across as rude, impolite, and unfriendly. You should try to improve such replies in the future, in order to make potential contributors feel more welcome.

I have already provided a slightly more verbose reply at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=782284.

Alex

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Using Github is infrastructure decision if there is one.

Why did you respond to question about it then?

Because if nobody replied your emails _at all_, _that_ could be considered rude and unfriendly.

I have experience releasing platforms consisting of dozens of complex components in CI\CD fashion, developed by hundreds of ppl.

All I mentioned contributes to speed of releases immensely.

I can't help myself noticing that you didn't reply to my question about your hands-on experience with releasing GIMP. Would it be safe to assume that you have none? So your estimation of "immensely contributing to the speed of releases" is based on your general involvement with software project rather than this particular project?

Alex

Hi Chris,

On Sun, 07 May 2017 09:31:29 -0400 Chris Moller wrote:

There's an American expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

You can find a rebuttal of this phrase, in a different context here: https://szabgab.com/what-does--if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it--really-mean.html .

GIMP development has been working well for a lot of years and I see exactly zero reason to change something that works well. I don't always agree with minor bits of what the devs decide to do, but THEY'RE doing the work and proposing fundamental changes that add nothing to the coolness of GIMP helps no one.

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

2. There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors.

3. GIMP is lacking many features that are present in similar proprietary programs.

4. Some people still complain on GIMP being hard to use.

5. A personal pet peeve - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781340 (minor problem).

----------

So there's certainly room for improvement and it won't be a good idea not to seek out ways to improve it. I'm not saying that moving to github and/or cmake is the way to go, but we still should try to improve.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

Chris Moller

On 05/07/17 07:14, Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

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List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

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Why do people wants to centralize over github ? I am seeing that question on many projects. Github has been unfriendly over free/libre software See:
https://mikegerwitz.com/about/githubbub and the new TOS give them some strange copyright over your copyleft software (if you did put a copyleft license on your code) There's gitlab available if people wants to make their own server which is recommend or use one of the already gitlab servers available somewhere.

Le 07/05/2017 12:40, Ivano Arrighetta a écrit :

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control, and to use CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.
GitHub also offers a WebSite builder and a Wiki for each repository, other than an issue tracker.

I'm pretty sure everyone would benefit from this.

Bye, Ivano.

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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

2. There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors.

3. GIMP is lacking many features that are present in similar proprietary programs.

4. Some people still complain on GIMP being hard to use.

5. A personal pet peeve - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781340 (minor problem).

----------

So there's certainly room for improvement and it won't be a good idea not to seek out ways to improve it. I'm not saying that moving to github and/or cmake is the way to go, but we still should try to improve.

We recognize the issues that you listed above. There is little we can do about 1), 2) and 3) until 2.10 and 3.0 are out. 4) is an uphill battle that will never stop. There seems to be some progress on 5) as far as I can tell.

Alex

Le 07/05/2017 13:31, gregory grey a écrit :

Guys, I respect your work and I like Gimp a lot but this

I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

is how you end up being a dead project.

I won't say a dead project, but I can see your are unhappy by the response.

You've presented arguments for the benefits of the project and the group for the use of github and you had a small response with little to no argument.

Please don't take it personally. In these cases remember that the people who respond to you are humans they may had a bad day that might influence their response, just ask why courteously and things shouldn't go into flame wars.

2017-05-07 13:14 GMT+02:00 Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list :

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

_______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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Note: veuillez s'il vous plaît utiliser GnuPg pour nos futures conversations
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Le 07/05/2017 14:04, gregory grey a écrit :

It's not about Github necessarily, it's about the response tone etc. You made a blog post, saying how small is the team and how much work you all do. Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

Don't misguide yourself by interpreting that X is saying "fuck off" because of a very short answer that didn't say or suppose that, just ask for a bit more of argument.

You haven't asked for more besides this mail who's full of anger. I don't blame you and I understand your path to this judgment but it won't help the situation.

I too didn't have responses for a long time in some emails that I sent but at some point I get a response.
Why is this so long ?

Well not all free/libre software developers are on the project 24/7 a lot of them are benevolent and have their own job next to it. Like you, you probably have other activities than just working on image editing software.

I wrote 2 emails saying I can help with build infra, which

is listed as a need in YOUR blog post. I got no reply. Apparently, I have to bring sacrifices and wait until the moon is in right shape. You are forgetting that there are loads of teams out there doing open source development. About your 3 cases of not responding - it's not my problem. It's your problem, as a maintainer of OSS.

If you seriously imply that Github is not more useful as a service than git.gnome.org, than I'm safe in betting you are writing code in vi or something.

Every time something like this comes up there is always tha same mantra about GIMP being so unique and unimaginably cool piece of software that it grants you the right to do whatever you want. You know, emulating Linus only works if you wrote Linux. There is plethora of other image editors, I can't see why I should not help someone else who knows better than behaving like a jerk.

2017-05-07 13:53 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine :

There are currently 216 forks of it. Have you _personally_ studied them at any length? Well, _I_ have. Last November or so I actually sat down and went through all the forks with actual changes created in the past 2-3 years. Out of those ca. 200 forks only a handful had actual changes to look at. And there was pretty much nothing to gain from those few.

Oh, and for the record, in 2 or 3 cases when changes looked vaguely interesting, I actually tried contacting those developers. Noone ever got back to me.

Can you see non-responsive people being a vital part of a successful community? Because I can't.

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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Note: veuillez s'il vous plaît utiliser GnuPg pour nos futures conversations
https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/fr/
Plus d'info ici:
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https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Icedove

Any piece of code more complex than "Hello, World!" can asymptotically approach perfection, but it will never get there. In a sense, all code is always broken, so the questions are whether it's broken enough to warrant fixing, and the benefits versus the cost in labour of fixing it. I'd suggest, as a practical matter, that breakage that falls below a certain threshold "ain't broke."

I won't presume to assess what "is broke" in GIMP, but I suspect that the location of its git repo isn't an issue worth addressing. As to CMake, I've no idea what advantages it offers, but GIMP is a complex app and I suspect that porting it to CMake would be difficult, time-consuming, likely introduce breakage, and the present auto*/Makefile mechanism has likely had most of the bugs worked out of it over the years. It may not be ideal in non-*ix environments, but GIMP is fundamentally an artefact of the *ix world.

As to your item 2. "There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors," I'd personally be glad to pitch in--I'm a retired IBM and Red Hat developer and have been coding for a third of a century--but it's not at all obvious what help the present devs need--the "Roadmap" on the GIMP site doesn't indicate priorities. As to 4., the hard-to-use bit, the just about universal approach to that complaint involves hiding complexity from novices, but that almost always makes things clumsier for experts.

Chris

On 05/07/17 10:06, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Hi Chris,

On Sun, 07 May 2017 09:31:29 -0400 Chris Moller wrote:

There's an American expression, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

You can find a rebuttal of this phrase, in a different context here: https://szabgab.com/what-does--if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it--really-mean.html .

GIMP development has been working well for a lot of years and I see exactly zero reason to change something that works well. I don't always agree with minor bits of what the devs decide to do, but THEY'RE doing the work and proposing fundamental changes that add nothing to the coolness of GIMP helps no one.

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

2. There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors.

3. GIMP is lacking many features that are present in similar proprietary programs.

4. Some people still complain on GIMP being hard to use.

5. A personal pet peeve - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781340 (minor problem).

----------

So there's certainly room for improvement and it won't be a good idea not to seek out ways to improve it. I'm not saying that moving to github and/or cmake is the way to go, but we still should try to improve.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

Chris Moller

On 05/07/17 07:14, Marco Ciampa via gimp-developer-list wrote:

On Sun, May 07, 2017 at 01:42:57PM +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

Hello there.
My name is Ivano Arrighetta and I'm Italian. I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control

No.

and to use
CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

CMake is just as painful as autohell.

I confirm what Alexandre is saying, and I'm from Italy too... ;-)

--

Marco Ciampa

I know a joke about UDP, but you might not get it.

------------------------

GNU/Linux User #78271 FSFE fellow #364

------------------------

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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Ivano Arrighetta wrote:

I would like to suggest to migrate to GitHub for version control, and to use CMake for creating build projects for Windows and Mac OS, other than Makefiles for *nix.

If cmake (or perhaps meson http://mesonbuild.com/ ?) truely is so easy to use and provides big benefits, a patch that should be simple to make that uses this or a script that automigrates contents from autofoo files demonstrating the cross platform and building benefits would be appreciated. Until the proof of concept is better than what we currently have the incentive to switch to something requiring more work for transitioning is unlikely.

GitHub also offers a WebSite builder and a Wiki for each repository, other than an issue tracker.

The GNOME project which hosts GIMP (and related projects) source code and issue trackers are considering changes to which software/infrastructure these are hosted on, GIMP and related projects will likely follow along + if and when such infrastructure migration happens. Personally I would look forward to better bug/issue reporting and tracking, as bugzilla has evolved I think it contains too many mystery fields and drop-downs that confuse rather than guide the issue tracking progress.

/pippin

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Chris Moller wrote:

As to your item 2. "There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors," I'd personally be glad to pitch in--I'm a retired IBM and Red Hat developer and have been coding for a third of a century--but it's not at all obvious what help the present devs need--the "Roadmap" on the GIMP site doesn't indicate priorities.

Er... Are we talking about https://wiki.gimp.org/wiki/Roadmap?

Alex

Yes, that's it. Some cool stuff on it, especially the "Future" section, but it's not clear what's most important to you right now.

--cm

On 05/07/17 11:13, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Chris Moller wrote:

As to your item 2. "There has been a problem to attract new developers and contributors," I'd personally be glad to pitch in--I'm a retired IBM and Red Hat developer and have been coding for a third of a century--but it's not at all obvious what help the present devs need--the "Roadmap" on the GIMP site doesn't indicate priorities.

Er... Are we talking about https://wiki.gimp.org/wiki/Roadmap?

Alex _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
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On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 6:25 PM, Chris Moller wrote:

Yes, that's it. Some cool stuff on it, especially the "Future" section, but it's not clear what's most important to you right now.

All the stuff in the "Future" section is unprioritized. It's too far off to deal with it now. Pretty much everything there could be worked on in a branch.

We only do bugfixing for 2.10 right now, although tiny new features still do get added (mostly when a patch is submitted by a contributor, and the code is clean and needs not much attention).

Alex

On Sun, 7 May 2017, yvind Kols wrote:

If cmake (or perhaps meson http://mesonbuild.com/ ?) truely is so easy to use and provides big benefits, a patch that should be simple to make that uses this or a script that automigrates contents from autofoo files demonstrating the cross platform and building benefits would be appreciated. Until the proof of concept is better than what we currently have the incentive to switch to something requiring more work for transitioning is unlikely.

Well... I ain't gonna do that for GIMP, of course, but moving all of Krita from automake to cmake was really easy, made it much easier for others to add stuff, make the build system way more clear... And didn't take a lot of time. In 2006, that is, more than eleven years ago.

I'm just offering this as a data point; Krita is only about twice as big as GIMP when it comes to lines of code, so it might be relevant. Also, all open source VFX related projects are using cmake these days. I have no opinion on Mesa, and I don't particularly _like_ cmake, but it's to autoconf and automake like auto* is to xmake.

The GNOME project which hosts GIMP (and related projects) source code and issue trackers are considering changes to which software/infrastructure these are hosted on, GIMP and related projects will likely follow along + if and when such infrastructure migration happens. Personally I would look forward to better bug/issue reporting and tracking, as bugzilla has evolved I think it contains too many mystery fields and drop-downs that confuse rather than guide the issue tracking progress.

And, of course, no sane open source/free software project should make github its main location. It's like hosting ones stuff on sourceforge; insane.

Boudewijn Rempt | http://www.krita.org, http://www.valdyas.org

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 9:13 PM, Boudewijn Rempt wrote:

And didn't take a lot of time. In 2006, that is, more than eleven years ago.

That's the ticket :) Inkscape developers would tell a different story, and their one is fairly recent.

Alex

Hello,

On Sun, 7 May 2017 16:33:49 +0300 Shlomi Fish wrote:

Dear Alexandre,

[snip]

As a side note regarding IRC - old does not necessarily imply it is bad (see http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=two-kinds-of-fools ) and one can normally find some unified clients to communicate on more than one service.

Agreed on that. The whole Claws Mail team is on IRC daily, communicating about dev topics as well as personal ones, we're a team, most of us are friends. It's sync and async ways of communicating, and we have a channel archive. It's fast and lightweight, public and private, can be done from a phone even, what would we want more or different? Another thing to re-invent? ;-). IRC is probably (w/ email) one of the oldest communication ways I se and still happy w/ it, it does the work.

Regards,

Sun, 7 May 2017 16:08:24 +0300 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

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wwp

I find conversation typically more friendly on IRC. Also, it's really awesome to be able to chat with project devs and others in the community in near real-time capacity. It's also easier to joke and share stuff without the need to spam the whole mailing list (not that anyone is doing that). My understanding typically increases ten fold every time I go ask questions. It's much easier to get opinions, and discuss things. You'd really never hope to be able to replace all the IRC conversations with mailing list stuff. It's a different dynamic entirely.

That's just a personal experience. :) -C

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 8:20 PM, wwp wrote:

Hello,

On Sun, 7 May 2017 16:33:49 +0300 Shlomi Fish wrote:

Dear Alexandre,

[snip]

As a side note regarding IRC - old does not necessarily imply it is bad (see http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=two-kinds-of-fools ) and one can normally find some unified clients to communicate on more than one service.

Agreed on that. The whole Claws Mail team is on IRC daily, communicating about dev topics as well as personal ones, we're a team, most of us are friends. It's sync and async ways of communicating, and we have a channel archive. It's fast and lightweight, public and private, can be done from a phone even, what would we want more or different? Another thing to re-invent? ;-). IRC is probably (w/ email) one of the oldest communication ways I se and still happy w/ it, it does the work.

Regards,

Sun, 7 May 2017 16:08:24 +0300 Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Now, a person says "I'd like to suggest" and your reply is basically "f*** off".

It's an interesting way to interpret a simple 'no'.

Turning tables much? You should interpret the number of developers on the projects into reasons of it being so.

Irrelevant.

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--
wwp

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First, to all -

Please remember that English is not the first language of everyone on this list, and people come from a wide range of cultures. I don't think Alexandre meant to be dismissive or rude with his "No" (and I think Carol's comment was meant ironically although I'm not certain).

GIMP uses git but not github; GIMP uses Make and the automake tools and not CMake. A project that's less widely used can more easily switch infrastructure.

When cmake goes wrong it's even harder to diagnose and fix than automake (as others have pointed out already) and I doubt there'd be enough of an advantage in moving to it to justify the one-time cost to the large numbers of people who package GIMP for redistribution, have automated build systems, port GIMP to Windows and other platforms, and so on. In any case the GIMP team is made of volunteers and we don't have people saying "I've been around for several years and I'll be around for several more years and I know CMake really well and am familiar with supporting it on OpenSolaris and FreeBSD and GNU/Debian Linux™ and Centos and OS X and Microsoft Windows in several versions and platforms... and I'd like to do the work of switching, and I'll spend at least a day every week on it."

More inline...

On Sun, 2017-05-07 at 17:37 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

GIMP's internals have been undergoing a very major rewrite.

But I think once the new architecture is released it'll be a lot easier for developers to participate, because the interaction between components is becoming explicit (a node-based graph).

[...]

3. GIMP is lacking many features that are present in similar proprietary programs.

If the feature sets are very different then the programs are not similar :-)

4. Some people still complain on GIMP being hard to use.

We are working on silencing them but we ran out of anthr... er... lookm have you ever been to a graphics design class at a university and asked people whether the proprietary tools that are most widely taught are easy to use? Hint: they aren't. They're harder if anything.

Some of that is because professional tools with a lot of features have to be learned, and people do training courses for them.

Some of it, yes, includes areas where GIMP's UI can be improved, which is still very much a work in progress but has come a long way. With the next major release "single window mode" will be the default, which will help a lot of people even if we know it's not perfect.

5. A personal pet peeve - https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?i d=781340
(minor problem).

I build GIMP from git on my Mageia cauldron system. Yes, there are some issues (I have to build gegl without video capture support for example, because there's no video device on my system since I don't have a camera) but if you have problems I'm happy to try & help.

Liam [ankh]

Liam R E Quin 

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

Please remember that English is not the first language of everyone on this list, and people come from a wide range of cultures. I don't think Alexandre meant to be dismissive or rude with his "No" (and I think Carol's comment was meant ironically although I'm not certain).

Oh, in real, they truly concerned me. AND they did make me cry at the meeting about the web site, so it really depends on the day and the mood for how much I agree they are jerks or not.

On Sun, 2017-05-07 at 17:37 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

Shlomi knows that it is taking the same amount of time that all the others did.

I have been concerned because work seems to have stopped on the gtk3 branch....

I build GIMP from git on my Mageia cauldron system. Yes, there are some issues (I have to build gegl without video capture support for example, because there's no video device on my system since I don't have a camera) but if you have problems I'm happy to try & help.

I was told by one of the gimp-1.2 guys that Liam had joined the dark side.

carol

In my experience "ain't broke" is a standard mantra of organizations stuck in the past.

It's a tent-pole phrase that does not explain anything, and justifies whatever practices you want it to justify.

I say waiting 3 weeks for build under some platform is broken as hell, given you shoot for mutiplatform-ity.

@Alexandre - what exactly is your point here? I did not build Gimp from source, ever.

I'm confident there is nothing in your Makefiles that is beyond human understanding.

Again, since you said explicitly you are not making infra decisions, can I talk to the one/s who do?

For sake of absolutely sane and productive discussion. If you want of course.

@ All, since we are having this conversation, one thing I always wanted to ask. Why do you spend your time on filters. I mean, you as a team spend month(at least this is my impression from backlogs) on fixing, porting them, etc, etc.
I can't recall I time I've ever used anything except Sharpen/Blur.

I mean, why carry the load of all the "Van Gogh"s and "Ripple"s ( no offence to their authors) if you can't release a minor version faster that once a half a year \ major things like transform tool get fixed very slowly? IMHO you are painting the car that loses it's wheels every now and then.

2017-05-08 1:06 GMT+02:00 Carol Spears :

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

Please remember that English is not the first language of everyone on this list, and people come from a wide range of cultures. I don't think Alexandre meant to be dismissive or rude with his "No" (and I think Carol's comment was meant ironically although I'm not certain).

Oh, in real, they truly concerned me. AND they did make me cry at the meeting about the web site, so it really depends on the day and the mood for how much I agree they are jerks or not.

On Sun, 2017-05-07 at 17:37 +0300, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Sun, May 7, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

I see some problems with GIMP development:

1. It's been taking too long to release new major versions.

Shlomi knows that it is taking the same amount of time that all the others did.

I have been concerned because work seems to have stopped on the gtk3 branch....

I build GIMP from git on my Mageia cauldron system. Yes, there are some issues (I have to build gegl without video capture support for example, because there's no video device on my system since I don't have a camera) but if you have problems I'm happy to try & help.

I was told by one of the gimp-1.2 guys that Liam had joined the dark side.

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http://ror6ax.github.io/

On 8 May 2017 at 09:47, gregory grey wrote:

I can get why are you trying to poke Alexandre on that - you are on an absolute "shoot the messenger" weird thing there.

In my experience "ain't broke" is a standard mantra of organizations stuck in the past.

It's a tent-pole phrase that does not explain anything, and justifies whatever practices you want it to justify.

I say waiting 3 weeks for build under some platform is broken as hell, given you shoot for mutiplatform-ity.

So, as a recap - the initial "no." is not the only answer here - Pippin did expand it
to a manageable way to try todo something about it, if someone is really willing to.

The original "no" reply from Alexandre is the absolute to be expected answer if you
jut read this thread subject. "Can you please change ([thesetwof core technologies your project
depend on just because they don't have enough bling-ding (github) ] , and then demand on the
human-resource-starved, volunteer only project, thatthe change is made or at least
started immediately. Sorry, 'no' is among the most polite answer one could get with such a request.

@Alexandre - what exactly is your point here? I did not build Gimp from source, ever.

I'm confident there is nothing in your Makefiles that is beyond human understanding.

Again, since you said explicitly you are not making infra decisions, can I talk to the one/s who do? on the

You are already, and you did get answers regarding more practical aspects of a possible cmake move, and a not-so-possible github move. Alexanre was just first
to answer - with an answer that correctly roughly mirrored the collective short answer the
he and the other collaborators for this project would like to be given.

For sake of absolutely sane and productive discussion. If you want of course.

Do you realise this is a volunteer-maintained project and people involved here will
be more happy doing codding and other tasks than "having a productive discussion on whether it would be theoretically better to change to cmake"? You've got a full
reply on that - that is: get one to have at least a proof-of-concept build that migrates and
simplifies the current process. The existing contributors won't stop what they are doing
now because an e-mail not-so-politely labeled "Please migrate to GitHub/Cmake" came
along.

Try the same e-mail with "I've managed to build GIMP with cmake and could drop these 10000 lines of configuraton files - it already works on Linux and Windows, Mac pending, here is the branch:... "

As for github, it is really irrelevant - the needed functionality from the code management aspect
is provided by the (free software) git, regardless of the host of the accepted main tree - what people disregard to see is that despite all its popularity, github is just a normal privately owned commercial player - that can change its use-terms, conduct, or go bankrupt any time. (All of which did happen to previous "point of reference" host for free software projects "Source Forge"). We have our servers setup and
independently running - and keeping control of the URLs where the project is hosted mean we
can change that if need arises.
Moreover, anyone can use git functionality to create their forks on github, and make something useful
with that - to the point of having patches using that side code-review tools ready to be looked at and reviewed by current GIMP-commiters, and if accepted, all it takes one command on the shell to send that patch in a way it can be officially used in GIMP - in contrast with one of the developers
"pressing a button" on github (wow, so much gain for a fancy prison).

Now, send more e-mails with personal offenses if you need - or try to get GIMP to build with
cmake and showing it is indeed more maintainable. :-)

best regards,

joao

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:47 PM, gregory grey wrote:

@Alexandre - what exactly is your point here?

That you have no experience releasing GIMP whatsoever. That you don't know our procedure. That you can't estimate how much time it takes to actually cut a release. That you don't know what you are talking about.

@ All, since we are having this conversation, one thing I always wanted to ask. Why do you spend your time on filters. I mean, you as a team spend month(at least this is my impression from backlogs) on fixing, porting them, etc, etc.
I can't recall I time I've ever used anything except Sharpen/Blur.

Because there are tens (or hundreds) of thousands of GIMP users, and not one of them uses GIMP _exactly_ like you do.

Every user is unique. Please learn to deal with that.

Alex

Von: "gregory grey"

In my experience "ain't broke" is a standard mantra of organizations stuck in the past.

GNOME *is* currently pondering to move to a different infrastructure - in particular to get issue tracking, revision management and continuous integrate more integrated.

More details available here: https://wiki.gnome.org/Initiatives/DevelopmentInfrastructure

@ All, since we are having this conversation, one thing I always wanted to ask. Why do you spend your time on filters. I mean, you as a team spend month(at least this is my impression from backlogs) on fixing, porting them, etc, etc.
I can't recall I time I've ever used anything except Sharpen/Blur.

I mean, why carry the load of all the "Van Gogh"s and "Ripple"s

Um... not that many changes there...

https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/log/plug-ins/common/van-gogh-lic.c https://git.gnome.org/browse/gimp/log/plug-ins/common/ripple.c

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Cool. So basically you confirmed what I wrote before. I have to be deemed worthy to get a response more detailed that "No". Your makefiles are special makefiles, unique in their awesomeness. Good luck building user community, I'll go commit to Spark meanwhile.

2017-05-08 15:25 GMT+02:00 Alexandre Prokoudine :

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 3:47 PM, gregory grey wrote:

@Alexandre - what exactly is your point here?

That you have no experience releasing GIMP whatsoever. That you don't know our procedure. That you can't estimate how much time it takes to actually cut a release. That you don't know what you are talking about.

@ All, since we are having this conversation, one thing I always wanted to ask. Why do you spend your time on filters. I mean, you as a team spend month(at least this is my impression from backlogs) on fixing, porting them, etc, etc.
I can't recall I time I've ever used anything except Sharpen/Blur.

Because there are tens (or hundreds) of thousands of GIMP users, and not one of them uses GIMP _exactly_ like you do.

Every user is unique. Please learn to deal with that.

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http://ror6ax.github.io/

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 6:05 PM, gregory grey wrote:

Cool. So basically you confirmed what I wrote before. I have to be deemed worthy to get a response more detailed that "No".

If that's what you choose to believe.

Your makefiles are special makefiles, unique in their awesomeness.

See above.

Good luck building user community,

We've been doing that for 20+ years. Luck has nothing to do with that. Unlike being persistent, for one thing.

I'll go commit to Spark meanwhile.

Even better :)

Alex