On 27/09/15 20:35, Sam Gleske wrote:

Hello devs and users,
I want to lower the barrier of entry of GIMP development for people who want to contribute to GIMP.
[ ... ]

It will automatically provision Debian Jessie 64-bit, upgrade the OS, install all GIMP development dependencies, and build GIMP. It builds babl, gegl, and gimp from the master branch.

Please tell me your thoughts/feedback/ideas.

SAM (irc nickname samrocketman)

Hmmm. What do you mean by "provision Debian Jessie 64-bit" exactly? You replace the existing OS?

On 09/27/2015 08:35 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

1. Install vagrant https://www.vagrantup.com/ 2. Clone: git clone https://github.com/samrocketman/vagrant-gimp

Um... why is KDE in there?

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Maybe GNOME?. :)
On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 1:23 PM Sam Gleske wrote:

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 09/27/2015 08:35 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

1. Install vagrant https://www.vagrantup.com/ 2. Clone: git clone https://github.com/samrocketman/vagrant-gimp

Um... why is KDE in there?

Because it's a UI. Would you rather build headless?

-- I prefer to encrypt my email

GPG FINGERPRINT 4096 KEY 8D8B F0E2 42D8 A068 572E
BF3C E8F7 3234 7257 E65F
https://keybase.io/samrocketman

Learn how to encrypt your email with the Email Self Defense guide: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

On 28/09/15 19:22, Sam Gleske wrote:

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 09/27/2015 08:35 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

1. Install vagrant https://www.vagrantup.com/ 2. Clone: git clone https://github.com/samrocketman/vagrant-gimp

Um... why is KDE in there?

Because it's a UI. Would you rather build headless?

Plenty of UIs and desktop managers, and plenty of development tastes... I'm myself on KDE, but if your VM was running Gnome or Unity, it would be useless to me. I do use a VM for some development that can only be done on Windows, but using a Linux VM over my existing Linux install is a bit wasteful?

On 09/28/2015 08:22 PM, Ofnuts wrote:

Plenty of UIs and desktop managers, and plenty of development tastes... I'm myself on KDE, but if your VM was running Gnome or Unity, it would be useless to me. I do use a VM for some development that can only be done on Windows, but using a Linux VM over my existing Linux install is a bit wasteful?

A good idea would be to use a DE that has the same dependencies as GIMP - XFCE comes to mind, as it is also likely the least demanding environment of all mentioned so far, and still reasonably sophisticated.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

On 09/28/2015 08:40 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

FUTURE:
Even when I maintain the build system at build.gimp.org there's regularly a "works for me" statement when the build system fails but it passes on a developers laptop. These challenges hinder progress when having a repeatable build environment would solve these issues.

GIMP developers use Debian Testing, with the assumption that is anything is present there, then a GIMP build can require it.

A build based on Debian Jessie, currently aka Debian Stable, will divert from that over time, and might not even contain some of the required dependencies. Due to the recent release of Jessie, this is not very noticeable yet.

A moving target like Debian Testing is probably a less than optimal building block for a vagrant-based approach.

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD

Hi,

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Michael Schumacher wrote:

GIMP developers use Debian Testing, with the assumption that is anything is present there, then a GIMP build can require it.

A build based on Debian Jessie, currently aka Debian Stable, will divert from that over time, and might not even contain some of the required dependencies. Due to the recent release of Jessie, this is not very noticeable yet.

A moving target like Debian Testing is probably a less than optimal building block for a vagrant-based approach.

I'm aware the core devs use Debian testing. I would have used Debian testing but currently there's no Debian testing in any of the tooling like Vagrant [1] and Docker [2]. However, as time progresses, and new Debian versions come out, the development tooling can to be updated to newer Debian versions before any anticipated or noticeable divergence occurs.

Actually not all core devs. Over time, I have built GIMP on Mageia, Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu), and now Fedora. Though it is true that at times, I happened sometimes to be forced to build more dependencies than just babl and GEGL on Mageia or Mint, I believe my only built dependencies on Fedora 22 are babl and GEGL (and Fedora 23 is out very soon, I heard). I even see that there are babl 0.1.12 and GEGL 0.3 available in official Fedora repo, allowing to even build GIMP alone if you want to.

Just to say that it is very possible to build GIMP very easily on all sort of distributions, on some with more self-built dependencies depending than on others, of course.

If a divergence becomes a regular problem then perhaps it would be more useful to fall back on developing in a more stable platform. Though, since that isn't currently an issue it's just a thought.

It is true that it can become an issue sometimes (I had the case on Mint not long before I switched away as we up-ed some dependencies that I had to build), but as long as we upgrade dep versions for good reasons (like: upgrade a required minimum version because we want to make use of a new feature or prevent a very annoying known bug, not just to have a higher version!), I think this is normal for a dev build to use recent versions of some dependencies.

Jehan

On Mon, 2015-09-28 at 20:55 +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

On 09/28/2015 08:40 PM, Sam Gleske wrote:

FUTURE:
Even when I maintain the build system at build.gimp.org there's regularly a
"works for me" statement when the build system fails but it passes on a
developers laptop. These challenges hinder progress when having a repeatable build environment would solve these issues.

GIMP developers use Debian Testing, with the assumption that is anything
is present there, then a GIMP build can require it.

I hope that nobody uses debian testing, the most unstable of all debians :) Testing is simply a rule we use to figure what we can depend on, nothing more. We needed some rule and made one.

Regards, Mitch

El mié, 30-09-2015 a las 23:49 +0200, Michael Natterer escribió:

I hope that nobody uses debian testing, the most unstable of all debians :) Testing is simply a rule we use to figure what we can depend on, nothing more. We needed some rule and made one.

Sore feelings after the gcc-5 migration? :-)

G.

On Tue, 29 Sep 2015 22:48:39 +0200 Jehan Pagès wrote:

Actually not all core devs. Over time, I have built GIMP on Mageia, Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu), and now Fedora. Though it is true that at times, I happened sometimes to be forced to build more dependencies than just babl and GEGL on Mageia or Mint, I believe my only built dependencies on Fedora 22 are babl and GEGL (and Fedora 23 is out very soon, I heard). I even see that there are babl 0.1.12 and GEGL 0.3 available in official Fedora repo, allowing to even build GIMP alone if you want to.

Yes, same versions of gegl and bal are in Mageia 5 too, although I build them from git anyway.

The difficulties of using Debian Testing are likely to outweigh any benefits, plus anyone working closely with git gimp is likely to want to test fixes to babl and/or gegl as they happen.

Liam

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/

Liam R E Quin (liam@holoweb.net) wrote:

The difficulties of using Debian Testing are likely to outweigh any benefits, plus anyone working closely with git gimp is likely to want to test fixes to babl and/or gegl as they happen.

gimp from git specifically depends on gegl/babl from git.

Bye, Simon

simon@budig.de              http://simon.budig.de/

I've never used it but wouldn't Gentoo be ideal for this? A source-based distribution that compiles and installs the latest dependencies?

It looks like Elle Stone develops under Gentoo, perhaps she can chime in?

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1011410.html?sid=28b28a150ede47f11acf44abef66be83

Chris

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 6:51 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

Liam R E Quin (liam@holoweb.net) wrote:

The difficulties of using Debian Testing are likely to outweigh any benefits, plus anyone working closely with git gimp is likely to want to test fixes to babl and/or gegl as they happen.

gimp from git specifically depends on gegl/babl from git.

Bye, Simon

--
simon@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
List address: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership:
https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 23:36:02 -0300 Gez wrote:

El mié, 30-09-2015 a las 23:49 +0200, Michael Natterer escribió:

I hope that nobody uses debian testing, the most unstable of all debians :)

Sore feelings after the gcc-5 migration? :-)

More to the point for GIMP development, both Debian and Gentoo (also mentioned) are distributions that aim for a certain amount of systems administration knowledge from their users - e.g. the ability to edit a text-based configuration file now and again. It's fine for experienced developers and system administrators, and for keen hobbyists too :), but for the people who don't realize that there's a single command that will automatically download and install all those 100 build requires Sam mentioned :) maybe Fedora, Mageia or Ubuntu would be better.

For a VM I'm not sure it matters much what is used, although it takes me a day or two to download a Linux distribution here at speeds of up to 1.5Mbps so a lightweight distribution would seem to be a win.

But, given that for me it's almost always been a matter of git clone of 3 packages, and running autogen.sh and make install on each of them with a prefix, I'm probably not in the target audience. In addition, people *not* running Debian and who needed to install additional software in the VM would need to learn a 2nd package management system, so the VM approach may be good for introducing people to the git version of gimp but not so good for longer term use. But hey, introducing people to development is a good thing.

Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/
Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/

On 10/02/2015 09:24 PM, Christopher Curtis wrote:

I've never used it but wouldn't Gentoo be ideal for this? A source-based distribution that compiles and installs the latest dependencies?

Gentoo usually is compiled optimized for the specific hardware that it's run on. I'm assuming this "vagrant" thing works somewhat like a virtual machine? If so, the following post gives generalized settings for installing Gentoo as a VirtualBox guest, which might be applicable for vagrant:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1017314-highlight-virtualbox.html

And this wiki post has some general considerations on settings for make.conf and for compiling the kernel in a virtual machine:

http://gentoo-en.vfose.ru/wiki/Virtualbox_Guest

So if "vagrant" is like a virtual machine and if Gentoo really can be installed "not optimized for specific hardware", then Gentoo has some advantages:

It's a rolling distribution that has recent software always available, with the option to enable "even more recent" that isn't as well-tested (but it almost always works flawlessly). Usually with Gentoo the only software I need to install in the GIMP prefix is babl, GEGL, and GIMP. Whereas other distributions that don't have such recent packages often require glib, gdk-pixbuf, etc.

If you start with the right configuration files, profile and use flags, and use a minimal window manager instead of a full desktop (I use IceWM+startx), you can install GIMP in Gentoo with no gnome dependencies, no polkit, no policykit, no consolekit, no systemd, etc, etc, etc. In other words, there's a *lot* less required software to install and update. And the resulting system uses less memory when it's sitting there doing nothing, compared to systems with all the bells and whistles. If anyone wants to try Gentoo, I'd be happy to share example configuration files for a minimal install.

On the other hand, installing Gentoo and setting up the configuration files does require a bit of thinking, and sometimes the Handbook isn't as clear as one might hope. But fortunately the Gentoo forums are very helpful.

Best,
Elle

On 10/03/2015 04:03 AM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

[...] but for the people who don't realize that there's a single command that will automatically download and install all those 100 build requires Sam mentioned :) maybe Fedora, Mageia or Ubuntu would be better.

If I got it right, the idea of vagrant is that all the packages you'll need will be installed as part of the VM creation/startup.

NB: if it is intended for development that is going to be contributed upstream, there should also be a step that makes them set up Git correctly - by asking for their name and an email address they want to see published with their commits.

And a Git alias for anonymous access to git.gnome.org might already be set up as well.

For a VM I'm not sure it matters much what is used, although it takes me a day or two to download a Linux distribution here at speeds of up to 1.5Mbps so a lightweight distribution would seem to be a win.

I'm pretty sure that Debian can fullfill that - if we don't blow it up artificially, for example by adding desktop environments with many additional dependencies.

Also, if there are multiple pre-made images to choose from, we could either pick a really bare one, or one that has most of the dependencies installed already (the whole of GTK+, for example).

But, given that for me it's almost always been a matter of git clone of 3 packages, and running autogen.sh and make install on each of them with a prefix, I'm probably not in the target audience.

Defining the target audience and their expected use would be important, I think. For example, do we expect people to keep this VM around for an extended period of time, or would they get it, do some quick development, and then get rid of the VM again?

Regards,
Michael
GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD