On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:10 PM, peter sikking wrote:

It is open at the moment what module Dominique will (re)design. Suggestions are welcome.

Personally I would like the team to come to final agreement about non-destructive editing. But maybe there are more pressing matters.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

Am 19.12.2011 13:10, schrieb peter sikking:

It is open at the moment what module Dominique will (re)design. Suggestions are welcome.

Great! So from my christmas wishlist:

* an improved concept for making the myriads of options available and for displaying them by the time they are actually needed

- is the Inkscape model adoptable for GIMP? -- i.e. the set of displayed options gets determined by currently selected tool

- can we really go without a horizontal options bar?

* text-based input with rich semantics, as recently discussed [1] (let's not call it a command line ;-)

* or, perhaps, instead of a single big design: a general round-up of all the minor details/dialogs which could use some love, but fall below the attention threshold when considered one-by-one. For example, the JPEG export settings fall into this category [2].

best regards, yahvuu

[1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list/2011-November/msg00103.html [2] http://old.nabble.com/JPEG-quality-factor---some-remaining-odds-and-ends-td27233173.html

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:12 PM, peter sikking wrote:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

Two primary uses in my case.

1. Really small text frames: with few words in not more than two rows (think logos, captions for screenshots etc.). Adjustments: font, font face, size, letter spacing, baseline offset, color. Missing property: stroke color.

2. Rather large text frames, with lots of rows of text (think website mockups). Adjustments: text frame size for text reflow, font, font face (selectively), font size (for the whole frame), underline, color.

There are cases when I'd make a good use of editable text on path, so for now I have to go to Inkscape for that.

In some cases I need special characters like proper quote marks (we use French quillomets in Russian), but I mostly rely on Compose key (it's a Linux/X11 thing). There is an alternative solution for GNOME currently under review:
https://live.gnome.org/GnomeOS/Design/Whiteboards/ExtraCharacters

P.S. Having "Sans" font always by default is a major irritating factor, because it never makes sense. Perhaps I should be setting up an proper alias instead, but somehow I never find myself doing that.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

1. Really small text frames: with few words in not more than two rows (think logos, captions for screenshots etc.). Adjustments: font, font face, size, letter spacing, baseline offset, color. Missing property: stroke color.

My bad: stroke color _and_ stroke width

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 01/13/2012 12:12 PM, peter sikking wrote:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

One of my major uses is composing textual elements of book covers and spines.

Another use is minor overlays of bits of text on photographs to point out relevant technical features in the photos.

What I wish to see in text tools....

- Always editable text as long as file in a format that is not flattened.

- Important (to me): Most recently used text settings (i.e. typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc.) to be saved (including between Gimp restarts) for default us in next operation. (Too many settings in Gimp are not saved, even while editing within session of editing a single image -- this should be a focus of improvement soon.)

- Per above, save settings as a "set" of settings that can be brought back for use (like Curves are saved). These "sets" of settings should be nameable by the user (or if not named by user, then default name of date/time). Naming is very important to be able to quickly find settings for various projects.

- Once text is created, always be able to change typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc., etc.

- In this context, be able to stay in the text dialog and be able to highlight & change differing parts of the text. i.e. Don't have to get out of dialog for each such change. i.e. Changes are _not_ all-or-nothing.

- When editing existing text, if user clicks in the middle to text, then further typing of characters uses the attributes in which it is in the middle. Same for either end of string, but I understand that the user must be sure to get to the beginning or end of string in a way that keeps the user inside the current attributes of the text.

- Text to be rotatable as any other layer without losing quality.

- Multiple text layers that can be edited individually or locked together for movement of layers as a group.

- Preview window showing net effect of text on total image. If the user has to edit text and then get out of dialog and render to be able to see the net effect, the process can get very time consuming.

? Maybe have a warning if image resolution is too low to render the text without having "jaggies".

Jay

Hi Jay,

all of that, apart from rotating while staying editable, is implemented and will be in gimp 2.8.

--mitch

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 14:11 -0500, Jay Smith wrote:

On 01/13/2012 12:12 PM, peter sikking wrote:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

One of my major uses is composing textual elements of book covers and spines.

Another use is minor overlays of bits of text on photographs to point out relevant technical features in the photos.

What I wish to see in text tools....

- Always editable text as long as file in a format that is not flattened.

- Important (to me): Most recently used text settings (i.e. typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc.) to be saved (including between Gimp restarts) for default us in next operation. (Too many settings in Gimp are not saved, even while editing within session of editing a single image -- this should be a focus of improvement soon.)

- Per above, save settings as a "set" of settings that can be brought back for use (like Curves are saved). These "sets" of settings should be nameable by the user (or if not named by user, then default name of date/time). Naming is very important to be able to quickly find settings for various projects.

- Once text is created, always be able to change typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc., etc.

- In this context, be able to stay in the text dialog and be able to highlight & change differing parts of the text. i.e. Don't have to get out of dialog for each such change. i.e. Changes are _not_ all-or-nothing.

- When editing existing text, if user clicks in the middle to text, then further typing of characters uses the attributes in which it is in the middle. Same for either end of string, but I understand that the user must be sure to get to the beginning or end of string in a way that keeps the user inside the current attributes of the text.

- Text to be rotatable as any other layer without losing quality.

- Multiple text layers that can be edited individually or locked together for movement of layers as a group.

- Preview window showing net effect of text on total image. If the user has to edit text and then get out of dialog and render to be able to see the net effect, the process can get very time consuming.

? Maybe have a warning if image resolution is too low to render the text without having "jaggies".

Jay
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On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 20:24 +0100, Michael Natterer wrote:

Hi Jay,

all of that, apart from rotating while staying editable, is implemented and will be in gimp 2.8.

--mitch

On Fri, 2012-01-13 at 14:11 -0500, Jay Smith wrote:

On 01/13/2012 12:12 PM, peter sikking wrote:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

One of my major uses is composing textual elements of book covers and spines.

Another use is minor overlays of bits of text on photographs to point out relevant technical features in the photos.

What I wish to see in text tools....

- Always editable text as long as file in a format that is not flattened.

- Important (to me): Most recently used text settings (i.e. typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc.) to be saved (including between Gimp restarts) for default us in next operation. (Too many settings in Gimp are not saved, even while editing within session of editing a single image -- this should be a focus of improvement soon.)

I was too fast, all but the above point :) You can save the tool options part though, lacking bold/italic.

- Per above, save settings as a "set" of settings that can be brought back for use (like Curves are saved). These "sets" of settings should be nameable by the user (or if not named by user, then default name of date/time). Naming is very important to be able to quickly find settings for various projects.

- Once text is created, always be able to change typestyle, size, bold/italic, color, etc., etc.

- In this context, be able to stay in the text dialog and be able to highlight & change differing parts of the text. i.e. Don't have to get out of dialog for each such change. i.e. Changes are _not_ all-or-nothing.

- When editing existing text, if user clicks in the middle to text, then further typing of characters uses the attributes in which it is in the middle. Same for either end of string, but I understand that the user must be sure to get to the beginning or end of string in a way that keeps the user inside the current attributes of the text.

- Text to be rotatable as any other layer without losing quality.

- Multiple text layers that can be edited individually or locked together for movement of layers as a group.

- Preview window showing net effect of text on total image. If the user has to edit text and then get out of dialog and render to be able to see the net effect, the process can get very time consuming.

? Maybe have a warning if image resolution is too low to render the text without having "jaggies".

Jay
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peter sikking (peter@mmiworks.net) wrote:

ps: I think mitch and nomis are the two developers most interested in this topic, and we would like to sit down soon with them to hash out a vision for text(tool) in GIMP, based on what we can distill out of this survey.

I am interested very much indeed, but I am buried in work until at least the end of february, so at the best I can hope to travel to berlin for a weekend or so, but there is hardly a chance for a lot of development from my side...

I'll be glad to give constructive criticism though :)

On the specific topic: I think we need to look at the needs for relatively big fonts and short texts (think "headlines").

This means we need good support for microtypography (sub-pixel kerning anyone?) and advanced open type features. There are impressively rich fonts out there and I want to use their features...

Bye, Simon

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Simon Budig wrote:

On the specific topic: I think we need to look at the needs for relatively big fonts and short texts (think "headlines").

This means we need good support for microtypography (sub-pixel kerning anyone?) and advanced open type features. There are impressively rich fonts out there and I want to use their features...

Speaking of which, there is another thing I absolutely hate about the current implementation.

It's how GIMP currently treats font faces. First of all, it lists all faces anyway, even though it already has bold/italic buttons to toggle. So when you (accidentaly) choose a bold version in the list, the bold toggle stops doing anything.

The other issue is that there's quite a few advanced font families with more weight variants than just regular and bold, e.g.:

http://new.myfonts.com/fonts/adobe/myriad/

So what GIMP really should have is not a stupid bold toggle button, but some way to choose bolder or less bold variant. I'd not venture to ask for the same regarding proportion (condensed, semicondensed etc.), but weight is essential.

Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org

This would be also a good oportunity to introduce OpenType advanced features, like alternates, swashes, old figures, etc.)

Some type features may seem out of the scope of an image manipulation program like GIMP, but advanced typography is not only relevant to page layout. There are several simple cases where full typographic control is needed.
Although it is possible to switch to other applications, some kinds of works are better if created using a single application. Having to switch apps for creating simple text elements that have to interact with other graphic elements (behind a layer, blended with transparency or alpha masks, etc). is overkill and lacks control and precision.

Some examples

Adding a simple text elements to complex multilayer composites:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/superdd/5355881913/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Type for a video-game UI:

http://scrawlfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/MGS-Rising-Start-Menu.jpg

http://www.bonartstudio.com/adm/menu_pictures/gl751Hidato_gameUI.jpg

Imagine how inefficient would be to switch to inkscape for creating those text elements, just because GIMP lacks some advanced type feature or fine-grained control over text parameters.

what version of the source has the repaired text tool?

________________________________
From: "gespertino@gmail.com"
To: peter sikking
Cc: gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] something's starting, it is the text tool

This would be also a good oportunity to introduce OpenType advanced features, like alternates, swashes, old figures, etc.)

Some type features may seem out of the scope of an image manipulation program like GIMP, but advanced typography is not only relevant to page layout. There are several simple cases where full typographic control is needed.
Although it is possible to switch to other applications, some kinds of works are better if created using a single application. Having to switch apps for creating simple text elements that have to interact with other graphic elements (behind a layer, blended with transparency or alpha masks, etc). is overkill and lacks control and precision.

Some examples

Adding a simple text elements to complex multilayer composites:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/superdd/5355881913/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Type for a video-game UI:

http://scrawlfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/MGS-Rising-Start-Menu.jpg

http://www.bonartstudio.com/adm/menu_pictures/gl751Hidato_gameUI.jpg

Imagine how inefficient would be to switch to inkscape for creating those text elements, just because GIMP lacks some advanced type feature or fine-grained control over text parameters. _______________________________________________ gimp-developer-list mailing list
gimp-developer-list@gnome.org
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peter sikking writes:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

My most common use case for text: adding text to a photo for something like a greeting card or a poster, sometimes intended for the web and sometimes for print. So I start with a photo (anywhere from 2 to 12 megapixels) and add some kind of banner text in a fancy font. Typical workflow:

- open a photo (fairly high resolution) - with the text tool active, click in the image - type some text (now the text is about 3 pixels high, since it defaults to 18 px).
- play around with the size, color, and font face until it looks good

That works if I use the Tool Options, but I've found that I can't use 2.7's new on-canvas box for any of that, because it only works on whatever text is selected. Initially I can't select anything because the text is too small to see (if I try, I always end up missing the first few characters). Even after I enlarge it from Tool Options, selecting the text covers it with a yellow box so I can't see how the text looks against the background.

I'm sure there must be a way around this (I can't be the only person who adds text to high-res photos). I'd love to hear other people's 2.7 workflows for that.

...Akkana

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:20 AM, Akkana Peck wrote:

peter sikking writes:

so please help us by replying here, with you answer what text means to you when working with GIMP.

- play around with the size, color, and font face until it looks good

Being able to edit text, with a halo, drop-shadow or other non-destructive automatically updated effect that provides contrast against most backgrounds can be both tacky, and useful. It is possible to achieve such things with GIMP today but it is laborsome and when you for some reason need to change the text/copy, you've got even more work in front out for you.

/

2012/1/19 Øyvind Kolås

Being able to edit text, with a halo, drop-shadow or other non-destructive automatically updated effect that provides contrast against most backgrounds can be both tacky, and useful. It is possible to achieve such things with GIMP today but it is laborsome and when you for some reason need to change the text/copy, you've got even more work in front out for you.

+1
But I woudn't put those "styles" as options of Type Tool, since the same effects could be used on other elements (such as shapes, cut-out photos, etc.)
I hate to mention Photoshop as a reference (I know GIMP isn't supposed to do what photoshop does), but they added those non-destructive styles as layer effects, and IMO it makes more sense than adding them as text styles. In such case that feature doesn't belong to text tool, but I agree that using effects such as shadows or halos with text is a common practice and now it's quite tedious because there isn't a way to keep them editable along the text.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM, peter sikking wrote:

let's see if I can stimulate this a bit. within the UI team we are discussing about the following:

In this regard i'd like to get an opinion on where text is located between vector and pixel work. afaik a lot of graphic design starts with the former and gets it's finishing in the pixel-level tool

On 26 January 2012 12:16, peter sikking wrote:

On Jan 26, 2012, at 12:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM, peter sikking wrote:

let's see if I can stimulate this a bit. within the UI team we are discussing about the following:

‘text never is the main purpose in GIMP work (like it is in scribus or libreOffice writer), it only plays a supporting role within a graphical work’

I must have died and come to hell. In graphic design it's equally important to images.

now we are getting somewhere. please elaborate a bit.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

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On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:16 PM, peter sikking wrote:

I must have died and come to hell. In graphic design it's equally important to images.

now we are getting somewhere. please elaborate a bit.

E.g. if you do a poster, text is an essential part of the whole work, because it transmits information you are going to use (what, where, how), whereas graphics of the poster transmits an emotional message. In general, I feel uncomfortable about the supporting/leading role separation. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because there's no rule.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:16 PM, peter sikking wrote:

On Jan 26, 2012, at 12:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM, peter sikking wrote:

let's see if I can stimulate this a bit. within the UI team we are discussing about the following:

On 01/26/2012 12:03 PM, peter sikking wrote:

As a graphic designer I always need text. I'm doing most of my text work in inkscape not because text doesn't belong to image manipulation, but because now it's impossible to get a good workflow, including: - Fine grained control over type properties and text layout - Non-destructive transforms (i.e. rotating a text element and keep it editable).
- Envelope-like distorts produce very low quality results with text (i.e. curving a text block with cage too to make it wrap on a cylinder)

Every piece that requires text interacting with image has to be done in the same environment you create/edit those images, because you need exact fit. An example: A fake neon sign on the top of a building (photo). Creating and distorting text in a different applications requires you to: 1- export a flattened version of your comp 2- create and distort text in the external app 3- export the text object, making sure its pixel size is right 4- import the object in GIMP and place it on the right place (something that lacks precision, because you don't have a reference of the right location since the text was created outside. 5- apply effects, etc.
If you need to change that text, you have to repeat almost the whole procedure again.

Basically, if you're working on a comp with several layers and you need text on it (or between layers), then moving to a different app to add it is a no-go.

Here I found some graphic examples of designs created with text in Photoshop. I know it's not the idea to copy PS or even have it as a reference, but this kind of works is something a graphic designer would do in GIMP.

...and the link:
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/04/50-stunning-photoshop-text-effect-tutorials/

:-)

Text, for me, is sometimes everything in the design.

Sometimes when I'm designing a brochure or any ad, i start by placing text. The font, size, style... these are the prime focus.

Just black text... and some lines... these complete the skeleton of the design.
Then comes the art work.

Sometimes, the text IS the art work... Like when we've got an interesting font, or some important text that is the focus of the design...

I would say, in any advertisement design, there is more to the text than to any art or graphic.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 10:13 PM, peter sikking wrote:

Guillermo Espertino wrote:

...and the link:

http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/03/04/50-stunning-photoshop-text-effect-tutorials/

oh, yes that also helps. going through it right now.

for instance this one gets the artwork-driven-by-type argument across:

<
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/02/25/breathtaking-typographic-posters/

let's be honest and say that every one of these that look super clean are better made in inkscape & co.

but everywhere where there is at least a bit of grunge, texture, yes, organic touch: that is GIMP territory (I say).

also thanks for your input in the other mail,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://blog.mmiworks.net: on interaction architecture

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2012/1/26 peter sikking

<
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2008/02/25/breathtaking-typographic-posters/

let's be honest and say that every one of these that look super clean are better made in inkscape & co.

but everywhere where there is at least a bit of grunge, texture, yes, organic touch: that is GIMP territory (I say).

yes, most of those examples are vectors only and since text is vectors, obviously a vector illustration package would be a better choice. But when it comes to mix vectors with bitmaps, although vector illustration packages provide tools to mask and transform bitmaps, they're not so powerful when it comes to applying special blendings, painting textures or details on vector shapes, alpha painting, applying filters, etc. It boils down to which application the designer chose to start with. If my poster has 50+ photographic elements that require retouching, blending and complex alpha composites and, say less than 20 typographic objects, I'd chose GIMP hands down.
Switching to another app to add those typographic objects breaks my workflow and makes me create proxies manually, since I can't open my layered comps in inkscape to add text and go back to GIMP. If those 2 apps would be integrated together and I could work using a common file format I wouldn't need too much control over text in GIMP, but it's not the case, and sticking with a single app for some types of hybrid bitmap/vectors works in this case is desirable.