Hi,

on the linked page you write:

"If you like it, Make Noise! Show your friends, put it in your blog/page, put it in forums, everywhere you can. I'll make noise too."

That is really totally not helpful. If you want to get involved in GIMP, then get involved and contribute. Making noise is just going to turn away the people who actually put their free time into developing this application. Instead of making noise you should start to contribute and ask others to do that as well.

Sven

Thales img wrote:

http://thales-img.deviantart.com/art/GIMP-2-8-Mockup-147624738

Since screens are wider than they are high, moving things to the top or bottom of the screen isn't helpful IMHO. That's where I have the least space. So far my favorite thing is having the whole screen for drawing, then press and my tools appear. Press again and they get out of my way. It's the best of both worlds--lots of screen for drawing, and easy access to tools.

Patrick

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Thales img wrote:

http://thales-img.deviantart.com/art/GIMP-2-8-Mockup-147624738

Since screens are wider than they are high, moving things to the top or bottom of the screen isn't helpful IMHO.  That's where I have the least space.  So far my favorite thing is having the whole screen for drawing, then press and my tools appear.  Press again and they get out of my way.  It's the best of both worlds--lots of screen for drawing, and easy access to tools.

this is nice, but I hate having to use this to get rid of the toolboxes littering my desktop when I need to minimize gimp and switch between windows. SWM makes it all better, so that I can most of the time just alt+tab in and out of gimp.

Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

...a bit of elision skillfully done by Patrick... Since screens are wider than they are high, moving things to the top or bottom of the screen isn't helpful IMHO. That's where I have the least space. So far my favorite thing is having the whole screen for drawing, then press and my tools appear. Press again and they get out of my way. It's the best of both worlds--lots of screen for drawing, and easy access to tools.

this is nice, but I hate having to use this to get rid of the toolboxes littering my desktop when I need to minimize gimp and switch between windows. SWM makes it all better, so that I can most of the time just alt+tab in and out of gimp.

I just anyway and everything just works. I never minimize anything except rarely when I need to get to the desktop to a thumb drive.

Patrick

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

I just anyway and everything just works.  I never minimize anything except rarely when I need to get to the desktop to a thumb drive.

Blessed are the metacity(Gnome window manager) users. The rest of us folk are cursed. kwin STILL does not treat the window hints right.

On 12/26/09 00:40, Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

I just anyway and everything just works. I never minimize anything except rarely when I need to get to the desktop to a thumb drive.

Blessed are the metacity(Gnome window manager) users. The rest of us folk are cursed. kwin STILL does not treat the window hints right.

I've talked to kde guys (kwin developers in particular) about this specific issue. Their response was very interesting. They have said that "wrong" behavior of kwin isn't actually anyone's fault. I'll quote one of developers: "Gimp relies on behaviour that's not stated in the standard but it doesn't say it's not allowed".

Vlada

P.S. I have insufficient knowledge about this subject. Just wanted to hear GIMP developers' opinion.

On Saturday 26 December 2009 14:54:20 Vladimir Savic wrote:

I've talked to kde guys (kwin developers in particular) about this specific issue. Their response was very interesting. They have said that "wrong" behavior of kwin isn't actually anyone's fault. I'll quote one of developers: "Gimp relies on behaviour that's not stated in the standard but it doesn't say it's not allowed".

Ive tried to tallk to them as well and basically they say it isn't wrong, because its not fixed in a standard. I call that a poor excuse for not fixing a usability issue. Based on usability needs it needs to be handled like metacity and now I hear Compiz do it, the way GIMP expects it to work. Almost anything else and specially the current status creates a usability nightmare. I have an utility window, not registered in the task bar and its BEHIND the main window. I have no way of raising it or using it without resorting to application side workarounds. That means in gimp using tab hide&show of all docks, that might bring it up, but its a hack.

On Sat, 2009-12-26 at 01:40 +0200, Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 1:35 AM, Patrick Horgan wrote:

I just anyway and everything just works. I never minimize anything except rarely when I need to get to the desktop to a thumb drive.

Blessed are the metacity(Gnome window manager) users. The rest of us folk are cursed. kwin STILL does not treat the window hints right.

In what way exactly does it not treat the window hints right? The spec doesn't clearly define what's the right behavior. These hints are just hints and there is no well-defined behavior that a window manager should implement to deal with these hints.

Sven

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

In what way exactly does it not treat the window hints right? The spec doesn't clearly define what's the right behavior. These hints are just hints and there is no well-defined behavior that a window manager should implement to deal with these hints.

Then perhaps somebody should define it. And I still think that not defined is not an excuse to not fix a usability problem and the problem is, that utility windows behind main window are not accessible.

On Sat, 2009-12-26 at 16:16 +0200, Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

In what way exactly does it not treat the window hints right? The spec doesn't clearly define what's the right behavior. These hints are just hints and there is no well-defined behavior that a window manager should implement to deal with these hints.

Then perhaps somebody should define it. And I still think that not defined is not an excuse to not fix a usability problem and the problem is, that utility windows behind main window are not accessible.

That implies that there would be a main window. But the spec doesn't have the notion of a main window that the utility windows belong to. Clearly the spec is not suited for what GIMP tries to achieve. But over all these years no one has cared enough to propose a change to the spec.

Sven

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

That implies that there would be a main window. But the spec doesn't have the notion of a main window that the utility windows belong to. Clearly the spec is not suited for what GIMP tries to achieve. But over all these years no one has cared enough to propose a change to the spec.

Let me rephrase that. Window without utility hints and with a taskbar entry. Who writes that spec anyway?

Hi,

On Sat, 2009-12-26 at 16:42 +0200, Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

That implies that there would be a main window. But the spec doesn't have the notion of a main window that the utility windows belong to. Clearly the spec is not suited for what GIMP tries to achieve. But over all these years no one has cared enough to propose a change to the spec.

Let me rephrase that. Window without utility hints and with a taskbar entry. Who writes that spec anyway?

Now you are surprising me. You are talking about the spec, but haven't read it, nor do you know where it originates from? We have a list of all standards and specifications that are relevant for GIMP at developer.gimp.org. You can find a link to the Extended Window Manager Hints specification there: http://developer.gimp.org/standards.html

Sven

On 12/26/09 16:03, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Sat, 2009-12-26 at 16:42 +0200, Alexia Death wrote:

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

That implies that there would be a main window. But the spec doesn't have the notion of a main window that the utility windows belong to. Clearly the spec is not suited for what GIMP tries to achieve. But over all these years no one has cared enough to propose a change to the spec.

Let me rephrase that. Window without utility hints and with a taskbar entry. Who writes that spec anyway?

Now you are surprising me. You are talking about the spec, but haven't read it, nor do you know where it originates from? We have a list of all standards and specifications that are relevant for GIMP at developer.gimp.org. You can find a link to the Extended Window Manager Hints specification there: http://developer.gimp.org/standards.html

Sven

There might be some hope here. Reading this document says that EWMH are scheduled for kde4.4 release:
http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.4_Feature_Plan#kdebase-workspace Still, it's not clear what will improve. Oh, well...

Vlada