On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:59 AM, peter sikking wrote:

guys,

would like to tap the wisdom of this crowd here.

say I have made a selection in GIMP, done what needed to be done to the pixels in the selection and now want to get rid of the selection.

the obvious way is Select->None.

how many more ways are there?

1. Use rectangle/ellipse select to select nothing (single click) 2. Activate QMask, drop black on the image, exit QMask 3. Use the Move tool in Selection mode to throw the selection mask off canvas.

On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 01:29 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

how many more ways are there?

ctrl+shift+a

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 7:37 PM, David Gowers wrote:

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 10:59 AM, peter sikking wrote:

guys,

would like to tap the wisdom of this crowd here.

say I have made a selection in GIMP, done what needed to be done to the pixels in the selection and now want to get rid of the selection.

the obvious way is Select->None.

how many more ways are there?

1. Use rectangle/ellipse select to select nothing (single click) 2. Activate QMask, drop black on the image, exit QMask 3. Use the Move tool in Selection mode to throw the selection mask off canvas.

4. (or 0 really), CTRL-SHIFT-A. This is what I always do - it makes sense to me.

Chris

On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 01:29 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

the obvious way is Select->None.

how many more ways are there?

Save the image as png, quit gimp and restart. :D

go to channels dialogue, make an empty channel, and do, channel to selection. (and then go to layers and select a layer in the image)

use rectangle tool to marquee round the whole image in "subtract from selection" mode, and press Enter

single-click with rectangle tool, outside the image (or ellipse tool probably, but not freehand tool)

several others that other people suggested, I generally do shift-control-a.

Liam

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 01:29 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

the obvious way is Select->None.

how many more ways are there?

Save the image as png, quit gimp and restart. :D

go to channels dialogue, make an empty channel, and do, channel to selection. (and then go to layers and select a layer in the image)

use rectangle tool to marquee round the whole image in "subtract from selection" mode, and press Enter

single-click with rectangle tool, outside the image (or ellipse tool probably, but not freehand tool)

It doesn't need to be outside the image, just outside the selected area.

several others that other people suggested, I generally do shift-control-a.

I view that as performing the exact same action as Select->None, which is why I omitted it.

On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 01:29:48AM +0100, peter sikking wrote:

the obvious way is Select->None.

I often use Ctrl-a (Select->All). Doesn't get rid of the selection, but I usually can do what I wanted to do afterwards.

bye, Martin

peter sikking wrote:

say I have made a selection in GIMP, done what needed to be done to the pixels in the selection and now want to get rid of the selection.

the obvious way is Select->None.

how many more ways are there?

I usually click with a selection tool on any area outside the active selection.
But this isn't always fast to do. For example another tool may be currently selected, or the selection method may be set to addition, subtraction or intersection.

On Sat, 2009-10-31 at 11:50 +0100, peter sikking wrote:

what I am missing is a direct way to end the selection state.

- like a close box [x] on the top-right of the marching ants - or (another shortcut actually) press (may be taken in some states)

Escape is taken basically. It is used by all tools as a means to cancel the current tool operation. Not all tools allow to cancel the current operation, but IMO we should rather make sure that this changes, than changing the semantics of Escape.

Sven

peter sikking wrote:

[cut]

- like a close box [x] on the top-right of the marching ants - or (another shortcut actually) press (may be taken in some states)

I like the close box more (the button on my keyboard is too far away from my tablet, and I think this is the case for most tablet users, especially if large ones are used), but what if the selection is bigger than the drawing area or if is it in another part of the image than the one currently viewed? Then one would have to zoom out/pan again to click the box, in other words will have to "search it".

What about showing a small "remove selection" button near the "Toggle Quick" Mask button? That would be in my opinion a very logical place for the proposed close box [x] to be, would take out very little space and be always visible.

On Saturday 31 October 2009, peter sikking wrote:

- like a close box [x] on the top-right of the marching ants

I like the idea of adding such a "selection context menu" to the selection, it could have much more than just an [X], maybe stuff like what Alt+... currently does (move selection, move selected content, move duplicate of selected content). Plus a number of other things I can't imagine yet.

Think of it as the options that show up for desktop widgets for say KDE4 or Mac's dashboard applets.

And it would be nice if these popped up at the side of the selection where the mouse currently is located so that the maximum distance is always size/2.

There would have to be a way to free the area occupied by such options, either by moving it to the other side or by disabling it, because there are some scenarios where you might need to do something with that area. Maybe one modifier key that's freed by that additional user interface could be used to switch it off (either while being pressed or to toggle the state)?

A lot of design details wait here.

As always I'm looking forward for what you invent next, Peter :)

Daniel

On Saturday, October 31, 2009, 11:50:43, peter sikking wrote:

what I am missing is a direct way to end the selection state.

I like the way PSP has this implemented: right click anywhere with any of the selection tools active will dismiss the current selection (I find having a secondary function bound to the right mouse button much more useful than a context menu, especially since the context menu in GIMP duplicates the menu bar).

SHIRAKAWA Akira wrote:

...elision by patrick...
I like the close box more (the button on my keyboard is too far away from my tablet, and I think this is the case for most tablet users, especially if large ones are used), but what if the selection is bigger than the drawing area or if is it in another part of the image than the one currently viewed? Then one would have to zoom out/pan again to click the box, in other words will have to "search it".

Exactly my problem. When I'm using my tablet, keyboard shortcuts ain't. And something that's part of the marching ants won't be visible when I'm doing detail work.

What about showing a small "remove selection" button near the "Toggle Quick" Mask button? That would be in my opinion a very logical place for the proposed close box [x] to be, would take out very little space and be always visible.

Yea!!! Seems like an obvious idea now that I've heard it that would make tablet user's lifes more happy:) Although, if you think about why I would be wanting to get rid of the selection, I'm probably going to have to scale or select another layer or something that is also less than optional. If we could have two little buttons it would be much better. The first, the aforementioned selection canceler, and the second, something that does the same toggle as hitting . I love the keyboard shortcut, but to use it I usually have to set down my tablet and reach over to the keyboard, which breaks the flow.

Patrick

Hi,

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 09:29 -0800, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Yea!!! Seems like an obvious idea now that I've heard it that would make tablet user's lifes more happy:) Although, if you think about why I would be wanting to get rid of the selection, I'm probably going to have to scale or select another layer or something that is also less than optional. If we could have two little buttons it would be much better. The first, the aforementioned selection canceler, and the second, something that does the same toggle as hitting . I love the keyboard shortcut, but to use it I usually have to set down my tablet and reach over to the keyboard, which breaks the flow.

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen. I don't want to offend you in any way, I just would like to understand why using the tablet and the keyboard at the same time is not an option for you.

Sven

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 18:49 +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen.

That's what I do, too. Wouldn't with a tablet-PC, though ;)

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen. I don't want to offend you in any way, I just would like to understand why using the tablet and the keyboard at the same time is not an option for you.

It is an option, but its often inconvenient. I like to have my tablet aligned with the screen as much as possible. It makes drawing easier. After being a tablet user for several years now I can do side by side setup if I have to, but more often than not, Ill just pick up the tablet and hold it, since having a laptop, best place under the screen is already taken. This puts the keyboard on the other side of the tablet. I have A5 tablet, so not that big, but reaching for the keys is still a hassle.

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Thorsten Wilms wrote:

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 18:49 +0100, Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen.

That's what I do, too. Wouldn't with a tablet-PC, though ;)

Or a screen tablet. Too bad I cant afford one :P.

On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen.

Let me propose a heretic idea that this is perhaps because most common work flows do not work out with having one hand on the keyboard while using a tablet? Like not having access to a one click undo. I know my need to have a hand on the keiboard near disappeard when I got the button maping for my bamboo working, so I have function keys for undo/redo.

What about showing a small "remove selection" button near the "Toggle Quick" Mask button? That would be in my opinion a very logical place for the proposed close box [x] to be, would take out very little space and be always visible.

Yea!!!  Seems like an obvious idea now that I've heard it that would make tablet user's lifes more happy:)

If you want to dream of selection "quick-buttons", I'd suggest: Toggle Quickmask (existing), Toggle Last Selection (one click sets it to selection of "none" and a second click would bring back the last selection before it was made to none, using one of the methods. The advantage to this, is a selection could be set, work done, then toggled and work done and bring back the selection to do more work again. Sort of a streamlined version of saving, clearing, then later restoring a selection.) and Invert Selection.

But this should move over to the UI brainstorm at this point ;)

-Rob A>

Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen. I don't want to offend you in any way, I just would like to understand why using the tablet and the keyboard at the same time is not an option for you.

This workflow may be ok with certain types of uses/users (for example photo retouching with a small tablet), but personally when I'm drawing (main thing I use the tablet for with GIMP) I want, as when I draw on paper, to keep the tablet aligned to my main monitor and keep a proper body/arm position.

As I'm right-handed, the only places for the keyboard to be would be in my case between the monitor and the tablet (where I actually keep it) or to the left of the tablet. So the ESC key would be in either cases too far away and require tiring and unnecessary stretching of my left arm.

Most tablets have usually a few (4-8 or more depending on the model, some may have less) shortcut keys and a touch ring/strip. So the left hand (or right hand for LH users) is usually not just lying on the tablet doing nothing but has access to a limited set of quickly and comfortably reachable keys. It's true that one of them could be mapped to the "select none" option, but depending on the user and/or tablet, this shortcut might have to be sacrificed for other, more used, ones.

All this without even talking of tablet PCs, tablet monitors, or users who use their tablet on their lap like if they were drawing on a sketchbook. In these cases keyboard access can be rather inconvenient and thus limited to the minimum possible.

hi all,

peter sikking wrote:

what I am missing is a direct way to end the selection state.

another thought:
when selection masks get disposed frequently, this points at possible improvements in other places, IMHO.

Stroking circles as an example: the task is finished once the circle is visible -- in my mind, but not so for GIMP, as i have to get rid of the selection afterwards. Genuine geometry tools shurely work better here than throw-away selection masks.

Complex selection masks, on the other hand, like a hair cut-out, tend to survive in form of layer masks or alpha channels.

I'm not really shure: are there other common workflows which build selection masks that are more complex than just a rectangle and still dispose the mask afterwards?

regards, yahvuu

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Sven Neumann wrote:

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen. I don't want to offend you in any way, I just would like to understand why using the tablet and the keyboard at the same time is not an option for you.

After some of these replies, just wanted to say that this describes *exactly* how I work. In addition to the actual drawing/editing I also need to track email and web pages, so I need to be able to jump between kb+pad and full kb easily (pretty much just drop the pen into my lap and start typing).

I'd like to ask the folks who do not keep a hand on the keyboard: how do you save files? How do you enter text into GIMP? Do you not use modifier keys when selecting/drawing? I find that just about everything I do (in any drawing program) requires both hands - but I would like to hear more about how others work.

Thanks, Chris

Patrick Horgan wrote:

Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 09:29 -0800, Patrick Horgan wrote:

Yea!!! Seems like an obvious idea now that I've heard it that would make tablet user's lifes more happy:) Although, if you think about why I would be wanting to get rid of the selection, I'm probably going to have to scale or select another layer or something that is also less than optional. If we could have two little buttons it would be much better. The first, the aforementioned selection canceler, and the second, something that does the same toggle as hitting . I love the keyboard shortcut, but to use it I usually have to set down my tablet and reach over to the keyboard, which breaks the flow.

I wonder why you need both hands on the tablet. The pros that I have seen working with GIMP always had one hand on the keyboard and the other hand holding the tablet pen. I don't want to offend you in any way, I just would like to understand why using the tablet and the keyboard at the same time is not an option for you.

One hand on the tablet and the other on the pen doesn't leave a third for the keyboard. Have to set down the tablet or the pen, and since I usually use my left hand for , and for the tablet, it's the tablet that's set down. I have the tablet, a wacom, in my left hand. I imagine that I could set the tablet down and still use it, but it doesn't feel right. Maybe if I had a bigger tablet? The keyboard goes up to the edge of the desk, where would I put the tablet but holding it? You've really confused me Sven. My insecure side says maybe I'm using my tablet wrong? But seriously holding it works like holding a tablet for me--it's natural.

Patrick

sounds a bit like holding your mouse mat whilst using the mouse to stop it sliding around.

I would suggest finding a _hardware_ solution to freeing up the other hand rather than forfeiting use of the keyboard.

regard.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:46 AM, wrote:

Patrick Horgan wrote:

One hand on the tablet and the other on the pen doesn't leave a third for the keyboard.

sounds a bit like holding your mouse mat whilst using the mouse to stop it sliding around.

Mouse is relative so moving mouse mat is a use issue. However, tablet is an absolute device so holding the tablet is a bit different. If you draw on a paper, you turn te paper to get your strokes to run conveniently for your hand. Thats something I do holding my tablet. I tilt my head and turn the tablet to keep the alignment. My tablet positioning tends to depend on what I do. Scetching, creative painting etc, I hold my tablet and align it as I need with the screen. Just using as a mouse, I set it down next to my laptop and keep my other hand on the keyboard, but I do that only about 20% of the time. Mouse is much more convenient for such interaction.

On Nov 3, 2009, at 1:46 AM, gg@catking.net wrote:

sounds a bit like holding your mouse mat whilst using the mouse to stop
it sliding around.

I would suggest finding a _hardware_ solution to freeing up the other hand rather than forfeiting use of the keyboard.

Sorry I'm a bit late to the thread...

But in general the Wacom approach, at least on the high-end, seems to be changing the hardware to free the user's hand from the keyboard. Check the info on the Intuos4. With eight configurable buttons down the non-dominant hand side (the tablet is switchable) and a four-mode toggle touch wheel, there really is no reason to touch the keyboard in order to get tab, ctrl, alt, shift...