Hi list,
in addition, can we change the default colors to read african-american and caucasian?

thanks

On Friday 29 September 2006 09:38, Jakub Steiner wrote:

Hi list,
in addition, can we change the default colors to read african-american and caucasian?

thanks

No because not all B---k people are American. and not all Africans are B---k. To suggest either would be entirely too chauvinistic.

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Roland Hordos wrote:

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600 From: Roland Hordos
To: "gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU" Subject: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

I agree (and have always agreed but continued to use the software nonetheless) however the changing of the name presents some difficulties.

When this was brought up on previous occasions the developers did agree to try and emphasize the full title of the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) in future.

The GNU General Public License (GPL) makes it entirely possible for distributions to make their own changes and many often do but so far most have resisted changing the name, probably due to the extra effort of maintaining such a change but if you suggest it to your preferred distribution you never know they might go ahead and do it.

On the techincal side Sven Neumann has explained he does not wish to see the project renamed and will not accept patches to make it easier for third parties to change the name.
http://www.advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/diary.html?start=144#gimp

Perhaps his opinion has changed but at the time he wrote: "I seriously doubt that the name is effectively keeping GIMP from being used. And I am all happy to ignore the very few people who are so narrow-minded as to having a problem with the name." http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer%40lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/msg08677.html

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

Roland Hordos wrote:

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

Thank you.

Gimp | Gimp |
a. W. gwymp fair, neat, comely.
Smart; spruce; trim; nice. Obs. or Prov. Eng. 1913 Webster

Andrew

On Friday 29 September 2006 13:48, Roland Hordos wrote:

Hi Alan,

Thanks for an intelligent and articulate response. I suspected the disconnect with reality, bringing me to post to the users list first instead of the developers'. Being a software developer and contributor to other open source projects, I understand the complexity issues. I also wish the community to grow past the selfishness of the proud consistent contributors. If only they could see it from outside, it'd be obvious.

thanks again, Roland;

Since I live near Finksburg and not too far from Scaggsville I am perhps desensitized to such points of political correctness. But I do remember from half a century ago a group of hotrodders who proudly called themselves the Kreeping Krips of Kaiser-Kabat. Kaiser was a hospital system and these particular hotrodders built and modified their cars from their wheelchairs.

There was an organization in the headquarters of Social Security called the Public Inquiries Group. Someone objected to the initials so they proposed changing their name to Public Inquiries Sub Section.

Bottom line, I thought the name "Gimp" a bit lame when I first heard it but now it falls trippingly from my tongue.

- John Culleton
Able Indexing and Typesetting
Precision typesetting (tm) at reasonable cost. Satisfaction guaranteed.
http://wexfordpress.com

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called "GIMP", not "the GIMP".

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special meaning.

Sven

Alan Horkan wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Roland Hordos wrote:

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600 From: Roland Hordos
To: "gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU" Subject: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

I agree (and have always agreed but continued to use the software nonetheless) however the changing of the name presents some difficulties.

It's not a word, it's an acronym.

Definitions of the WORD gimp:

an ornamental flat braid or round cord used as a trimming SPIRIT, VIM
CRIPPLE
LIMP
LIMP, HOBBLE

So, I guess it's up to your interpretation.

John R. Culleton wrote:

Bottom line, I thought the name "Gimp" a bit lame when I first heard it but now it falls trippingly from my tongue.

When I hear it in the context of software, I think of GIMP, not the 'word' gimp.

Roland Hordos wrote:

For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special

meaning. ..
Thank you, I'll correct my original comment. Change that to say:

"While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a demeaning way."

I've been using gimp for a long while now, right here in the english speaking USA, and I've not once heard anyone comment regarding the name and associating it with the word 'gimp.'

I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in a very long time. And I don't believe that's because people are more politically correct these days. I think it's a term that just isn't used in this way any longer.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

* Geoffrey [09-29-06 15:12]:

Roland Hordos wrote:

"While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a demeaning way."

I've been using gimp for a long while now, right here in the english speaking USA, and I've not once heard anyone comment regarding the name and associating it with the word 'gimp.'

I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in a very long time. And I don't believe that's because people are more politically correct these days. I think it's a term that just isn't used in this way any longer.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

I agree. At any rate, a simple explanation that "GIMP" is an acronym rather than term which may or may not be received as a derogatory adjective should suffice. If it doesn't, the audience is already biased to the point of waisted effort.

Selon Roland Hordos :

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

Thank you.

Roland Hordos IT Manager

I can only say that in french "Gimp" don't have any sens or means...Ok...it's a big troll on french forums about "Photoshop is the best!" "Gimp rules !"...but the name in itself have no sens.
As a froggy, I love the sound of "The Gimp" even if it's an acronym.

Sincerely.

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

can you proove your claim?

Sigh. Try googling "is gimp a derogatory term". If you read the sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try the next 15000.

Hi Roland,

what Sven possibly meant here was for you to prove that the name GIMP is a reason why the product isn't used in a professional IT setting, whatever that is. I have been using GIMP professionally for over 5 years and Novell, Inc. for example doesn't have a problem selling it as part of their enterprise OS.

cheers

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:38:02PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

can you proove your claim?

Sigh. Try googling "is gimp a derogatory term". If you read the sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try the next 15000.

That is not proof.

Search for just plain "gimp" on any major search engine, and the majority of the links refer to this project.

In fact, changing the name of the project would hurt adoption more, by giving up search engine presence, and having a fairly easy to remember four letter name as a search term to begin with.

Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I received a call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a scanned document with Paint or Photoshop. I can't justify the cost of photoshop for 100 desktops and paint is useless. I would install the GIMP software for him in a heartbeat if I didn't worry that he might be offended by the reference. Any corporate business environment has, or should have, this sense of decency.

Most corporate business environments would be in violation of their terms of governence by rejecting potential cost-savings solely on nebulous claims such as this. You probably should be reprimanded for this behavior.

-Yosh

Jakub Steiner wrote:

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

what Sven possibly meant here was for you to prove that the name GIMP is a reason why the product isn't used in a professional IT setting, whatever that is. I have been using GIMP professionally for over 5 years and Novell, Inc. for example doesn't have a problem selling it as part of their enterprise OS.

Here's one example for you.

I've used GIMP for about 5 years in a professional capacity at 2 different places of employment. At the first place, I was in a marketing department. We all had Photoshop installed, but I used GIMP 95% of the time. The VP of marketing would always smirk and make some dorky comment whenever he was looking over my shoulder and asked what software I was using. Basically, he didn't take GIMP as very serious software due to its name. Granted, if he took the time to let me show him how awesome GIMP is, he would come around. But he simply doesn't have the time for that (not a hands-on graphics guy), but he makes the final say of which graphic software packages we use/purchase. That's a piece of US culture for you that's not tied into the OS market.

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.

Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion. It is somewhat ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere. That's all you really need.

Eric

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600 "Roland Hordos" wrote:

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my language

I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom in the UK, sticky tape here

Owen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gimp

I personally don't care either way.

Owen wrote: On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600 "Roland Hordos" wrote:

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my language

I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom in the UK, sticky tape here

Owen

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

"While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a demeaning way."

Sigh. All major commercial Linux distributors in the English speaking world include the GNU Image Manipulation Program. Most of them even print the acronym on the box or mention it prominently in the product description. If you have a look at the IT section of any major book store, you will find books about GIMP. I think you are by far overestimating the derogatory impact.

Sven

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P wrote:

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.> Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion. It is somewhat ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere. That's all you really need.

I agree. Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense. This is not a problem for those who know that "GIMP" actually stands for "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably not know the expansion of the acronym either. Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only "GIMP" in the splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what this stands for.

It may be interesting to associate the name of the application with what it does. If we look at GIMP and its derivatives, we have: GIMP - Meaningless unless it is expanded. FilmGimp - Not too bad, but not used anymore. CinePaint - Good. Unique and directly linked to the right area. GIMPshop - Awful. This only has a meaning for Photoshop users. If the goal was to use a name that contains parts of Photoshop's name, then picking PhotoGIMP would have been better. But plagiarism is not a good idea anyway. Seashore - Meaningless.
And if we look at other projects and products, we have (besides several products called Paint or Painter): Krita - Meaningless except if you speak Swedish KolourPaint - Good.
Tux paint - Good.
Tile Studio - Not too bad but specialized. mtPaint - Not too bad.
Dogwaffle - Bad.
Picasa - Not too bad.
PicMaster - Not too bad.
Pixel - Good but the term is too common. Photoshop - Not too bad.
PaintShop Pro - Not too bad.
Fireworks - A bit confusing, but inspiring. PhotoImpact - Good.
PhotoPaint - Good.
For the vector drawing programs, names like InkScape, Skencil or Sketch are rather good.

Several other applications in the same area seem to have more interesting names. Maybe GIMP could become more popular if it switched to a name that is more directly associated with graphics. Maybe not. As Yosh mentioned, GIMP already has some mindshare and a new name would not only have to be good, it would have to be good enough to justify sacrificing the popularity of the current name.

So feel free to propose better names that are: - related to the graphics, photo or image manipulation domains - cool, inspiring
- unique so that we don't run into trademark problems - short enough to fit in the applications menu or window titles - suitable for most languages and cultures

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to change the name. With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

-Raphaël

Owen wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600 "Roland Hordos" wrote:

Hi,

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

I am amazed and have never followed this up. In what language is Gimp an derogatory term? Certainly has no meaning in my language

What is your language?

In English 'gimp' is defined to mean both someone who has a physical deformity that results in a limp - see definitions 3 and 4 at http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/gimp or the fifth entry in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp, or any of several entries at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gimp

I've also heard it used for side-show freaks who like to do things like hammer nails up their nostrils.

I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom in the UK, sticky tape here

well - it's probably only an issue in English speaking countries (at least Canada and the US), but still...

I must admit that when I've told non-open source users the name of the image manipulation app I use, a lot of people haven't taken it seriously because of the name.

I'm not 100% sure I'd suggest a name change, but I must agree that there is probably a large portion of the population who would take the project less seriously because of the current name, and a small portion of the population who would be actively offended by the current name.

Warren

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 05:32:46PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

Unreal. Okay, here in Canada the google search I indicated brings up the following in order of top ranking:

1) The first is this link where someone with Cerebral Palsy is discussing the term Gimp and other "derogatory terms" http://www.flspinalcord.us/FSCIRC-Directors-Blog.cfm

2) The second link hits Wikipedia, with the very first part of the excerpt on the search indicating "Gimp is usually a derogatory term .." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp_(sadomasochism)

3) The third link goes to The Linux Advocate blog where the author is comparing Gimp vs. Photoshop and what do you suppose is the first item on his list .. "The Name".
http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/2006/08/gimp-vs-photoshop-what-stil l-needs-to.html

These go on and on, but perhaps it's only a North American cultural effect. My point remains the same.

Irrelevant. Of course a search for "is gimp a derogatory term" will bring up hits about derogatory terms, because a search for "derogatory term" will bring up hits about derogatory terms as well.

Like I said before, a search for "GIMP" itself brings a majority hits related to the project. You seem to have ignored that. Following your claim that search engines have the pulse on cultural effects, that means that the use of gimp as something insulting has very low usage, relative to other usage.

You also ignored my point that changing the name would abandon current search engine rankings and harm the project more than whatever gains by bending over to the childish demands of people who only judge things on names and can't actually think through things properly.

Yosh, with an e-mail address at gimp.org I'd count you on the side of proud long term or regular contributor who is simply not going to see any other side. If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone. I consider the quality of the GIMP on par with much commercial software, but it has an image problem (pun however you want it).

Nah, you'll be gone because you're an idiot who just wants to stir trouble and pull claims out thin air, with no basis behind them whatsoever.

The way you answered my mail illustrates that you can't defend your ridiculous claims and choose to hide behind silly handwaving instead.

-Yosh

Hello,

On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos wrote: ...

[...]If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,

Yahoo

I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

:-)

Steve

FYI today i was sitting here at a semi new job (been here for a month) at a major skate shoe company, and i needed to edit an image.

my options were... A) use microsoft paint
B) put in a software license request and wait 2 weeks

i chose option C C) install gimp

from this perspective, the name doesn't matter...the functionality and the licensing are what made me choose the gimp.

plus, when i installed it a co-worker said "gimp? whats that" i think the name makes it memorable.

On 9/29/06, Steve Bibayoff wrote:

Hello,

On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos wrote: ...

[...]If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's

title,

Yahoo

I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

:-)

Steve

Saturday 30 September 2006 01:35, Raphaël Quinet raš?:

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to change the name. With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

-Raphaël

Aquarel
Akryl
Colourbox - Kolorbox
Graphill
Grafill

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Spam.

Both sorts.

HTH, Michael

Roland,

There is another aspect about this whole PC thing with names etc. that annoys me. There are way more than enough real problems in the world such as children dieing every few seconds. While real problems like this exist I find concern over a small issue like the name of a software package somewhat trivial. I don't want you to take my remarks personally, but the fact of the matter is that at the rate that various special interest groups are itemizing things that 'offend' their sensibilities we are likely to need a special 'dictionary' of inappropriate terms and words. I think that it's time we all grew up and just got on with life. I repeat, don't take this personally, these are just my views. Oh, and by the way, there are several words in widespread use that reflect very negatively on my own cultural heritage. I know and understand the terms but most of the people using them don't - I've asked. I've also never explained them to my children so they won't have the problem either. In general, I find that when a word or term is decreed 'wrong' or non-PC, all it does is attract attention and in an inverse way, help perpetuate whatever bigotry gave rise to it in the first place.

Jim

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Spam.

Both sorts.

HTH, Michael

On Friday 29 September 2006 11:38, Roland Hordos wrote:

Sven, coincidentally while I began to read your response I received a call from an engineering user here wanting to edit a scanned document with Paint or Photoshop. I can't justify the cost of photoshop for 100 desktops and paint is useless. I would install the GIMP software for him in a heartbeat if I didn't worry that he might be offended by the reference. Any corporate business environment has, or should have, this sense of decency.

I guess we are fortunate that GIMP is not a corporate or buisiness offering so we don't have to spend 100's of dollars to install it.

Freedom of choice is such a burden.

dh

Owen wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 06:54:48 -0600

I suspect it might just be an issue local to a country, like durex is a condom in the UK, sticky tape here

Thanks for clarifying that. I've always wondered why I can't get those suckers off!

I recall a team we played against in HS - they named the school "First Assembly of God School". You can imagine the amount of harassment they got that first year over *that* acronym on the side of the bus. The name became "First Assembly of Christ School" the next year...

I do not believe that GIMP should be renamed. Anyone who takes offense should simply grow up a little. Renaming things in 'decent' or 'sanitary' ways is foolish at best.

Chris

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em

Here in the USA there is a term for photographers looking at their LCD after a photo. It is known as "CHIMPING" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimping

All of us "GIMPers" should work on changing the term from CHIMPing to GIMPing - this will solve both problems. GIMPing will be associated with digital photography AND make the term "GIMP" even more acceptable than it already is - I don't recall who said it (Martin Luther King Jr.?) but "...embrace the word and it loses its power to hurt".

If this doesn't work I'd suggest the new name of, dogwaffle......oh damn! it's already taken!

For those of you claiming the name "GIMP" is holding back adoption, please include what other open source products your company HAS adopted - surely they have readily embraced OpenOffice, MrProject, Inkscape, Evolution (although in my backwards country this term is more offensive than GIMP these days) ... I contend people refuse to adopt due to ignorance not insult (that goes for evolution as well as GIMP by the way).

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, yves wrote:

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:38:23 -0700 From: yves
To: 'Alan Horkan'
Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

Can somebody explain what is 'wrong' with that name? Yves

"lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet" http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

Another less commonly used meaning - but well known from the film Pulp Fiction (1994) - can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimp_(sadomasochism) The developers are very familiar with this meaning as it is referenced in the following bug report they insist on leaving open "Fun - GIMP becomes enraged upon donning of leather mask" http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10686 GIMP was started in 1995.

There are other meanings such as a type of knot or braid but I was unfamiliar with those meanings until people tried to defend the name.

-- Alan

Actually to me giving the name GIMP to the first "free software" end user application foremost strengthens people's prejudges that open source software is unprofessional and mostly targeted at immature adolescents. Come on, it's not even clever, it's like naming an end user app something like MO'FO, FAG or RETARD.
Spam? You have to be kidding me! That comes from Hormel SpicedHam and was introduced in the '30s. Since when is the name itself derogatory?

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Alan Horkan wrote:

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

While the term "gimp" may be disparagingly used when referring to a PERSON, that does not make the word itself disparaging; just as calling a person a "cripple" might be slight, but referring to machinery or software as "crippled" in no way slights PEOPLE. Words have different meanings in different contexts (not to mention different locales) and one should not be overly concerned when an impersonal and innocuous usage usurps a disparaging one -- I should think such a change should be of benefit to those who would be offended by its disparaging use.

So far as "GIMP" being disparaging to itself is concerned: even if true, I see no problem with this. If this means short-sighted individuals wouldn't use the product because of a self-deprecatory name, so be it. As the plant engineer for a small ink manufacturer, I had no problem choosing a product called "MiniCAD" over the more "professionally" named "CATIA", "AUTOCAD", et cetera (and isn't the word "cad" disparaging?). My bosses had no problem that the name was self-derogatory, especially when they realized the power that the software possessed (not to mention the savings of thousands of dollars in initial outlay; though that was the major criterion of my trade study).

Personally, I like the name "GIMP" (as it is an acronym, I always capitalized the letters and, despite Sven's desires, I use "the" before it so as to grammatically match its expanded form). It is part of the Unix tradition of naming commands with (short) acronyms, is easy to say (unlike some acronyms: WWW, eg), is not forced (unlike some acronyms: GUILE, eg), actually stands for a functional meaning (unlike some acronyms: AWK, eg), (is not recursive: GNU, eg), and gives deserved credit to its GNU origins.

I rather understand the preference that the software's name describe its function, but don't think that in itself justifies loosing the GIMP's already significant association with being an "image manipulation program" (I also despise the practice of usurping common words such as "Paint", "Word", "Draw", et cetera when naming products; little mitigated by placement of a lowercase "i" in front them.)

-------- "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." -- Harry S. Truman

On Friday 29 September 2006 20:33, Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Spam.

Both sorts.

Coke, which means Coca Cola or cocaine (among other meanings.)

Hustler, which means prostitute.

Vanity Fair

And you said "it's" (a contraction for it is) when you meant "its" (the possessive form of the pronoun "it").

Bye!

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Sven Neumann wrote:

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 00:32:04 +0200 From: Sven Neumann
To: Roland Hordos
Cc: "gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU" Subject: RE: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 12:38 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

"While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back in the English speaking world because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. Gimp is a term in common culture that refers to a disabled person in a demeaning way."

Sigh. All major commercial Linux distributors in the English speaking world include the GNU Image Manipulation Program. Most of them even print the acronym on the box or mention it prominently in the product description.

That doesn't necessarily mean they would not prefer another name or find it easier to promote. The most appropriate people to ask would be an accessibility group including native English speakers.

If you have a look at the IT section of any major book store, you will find books about GIMP. I think you are by far overestimating the derogatory impact.

Maybe but we should all understand there is a derogatory impact and it does offend some amount of people and does make some people uncomfortable promoting the software because this issue comes up every so often.

Now maybe it is impractical to do much about it but Sven previously made it very clear he very much wants to keep the name and does not want to encourage anyone to change it either.

I don't think anyone would fork a program over just the name but at the moment that seems to be the only option available to people who dislike the name.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, [ISO-8859-1] Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P wrote:

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.> Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion. It is somewhat ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere. That's all you really need.

I agree. Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.

This is not a problem for those who know that "GIMP" actually stands for "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably not know the expansion of the acronym either.

This is why it is so important for things like the release notes and other promotional material to talk about the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) making sure to first explain the name before using the acronym.

Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only "GIMP" in the splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what this stands for.

[...]

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to change the name. With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

I wanted to side step the issue of picking a better or different name, since it is impossible to please everyone and the original gimp is unlikely to change. Instead I had hoped to tackle the issue of providing infrastructure to make it possible. That would also mean there would be no excuse for further discussion until someone provided the necessary patches and infrastructure to make the name cleanly reconfigurable, something I would think you might want to encourage.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

On 9/30/06, Saul Goode wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Alan Horkan wrote:

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

While the term "gimp" may be disparagingly used when referring to a PERSON, that does not make the word itself disparaging; just as calling a person a "cripple" might be slight, but referring to machinery or software as "crippled" in no way slights PEOPLE. Words have different meanings in different contexts (not to mention different locales) and one should not be overly concerned when an impersonal and innocuous usage usurps a disparaging one -- I should think such a change should be of benefit to those who would be offended by its disparaging use.

So far as "GIMP" being disparaging to itself is concerned: even if true, I see no problem with this. If this means short-sighted individuals wouldn't use the product because of a self-deprecatory name, so be it. As the plant engineer for a small ink manufacturer, I had no problem choosing a product called "MiniCAD" over the more "professionally" named "CATIA", "AUTOCAD", et cetera (and isn't the word "cad" disparaging?). My bosses had no problem that the name was self-derogatory, especially when they realized the power that the software possessed (not to mention the savings of thousands of dollars in initial outlay; though that was the major criterion of my trade study).

Personally, I like the name "GIMP" (as it is an acronym, I always capitalized the letters and, despite Sven's desires, I use "the" before it so as to grammatically match its expanded form). It is part of the Unix tradition of naming commands with (short) acronyms, is easy to say (unlike some acronyms: WWW, eg), is not forced (unlike some acronyms: GUILE, eg), actually stands for a functional meaning (unlike some acronyms: AWK, eg), (is not recursive: GNU, eg), and gives deserved credit to its GNU origins.

I rather understand the preference that the software's name describe its function, but don't think that in itself justifies loosing the GIMP's already significant association with being an "image manipulation program" (I also despise the practice of usurping common words such as "Paint", "Word", "Draw", et cetera when naming products; little mitigated by placement of a lowercase "i" in front them.)

-------- "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." -- Harry S. Truman

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 06:54:48AM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name. If someone who can champion this task reads this, please humble yourself for the sake of this amazing software that some of us are embarrassed to promote, or simply won't until the name is changed.

then stop. promote actually spending the money to purchase other applications for their well-namedness.

that being said, i chuckle when i hear the word 'Kleenex'. this chuckle that i get does not restrict me from using this product as a 'facial tissue'. being limited by how much money i have available does though.

quite possibly the first mention of the word gimp in a media situation is in this movie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_Town_%281938_film%29 the movie was about prejudice and financially challenged people. the word is used in this movie in not such a derogatory way because the person it was being used to describe was such a functional and well rounded person. it is interesting how so much of our fictional stories are about how bad people work and little howtos about how to disable them.

the software known as GIMP was started by a spencer as well. what is interesting to me is that the company who hired him also is hosting a searchable archive of newsgroup stuff. some of the archived news has changed its message in these years i have been involved. the news piece i read was about how the software had been originally written because such software was not available to the writers -- unless they wanted to steal. this archived news has changed. the name of the company hosting this archives makes me think of what a baby says when it is happy and trying to speak.

perhaps we should start there and ask this company to change its name because it is such a humiliating message to its users?

any guesses the reason that the original message changed from 'i don't want to steal so i wrote this software myself' to saying nothing? the company reports financial health and seems to be in the position to make positive change in the world. could it be that money is only possessed by perverts? this also seems to be the message of this thread that followed this very stupid and terribly predictable thread.

perhaps the original news item i read was wrong. perhaps the one i read now is the correct one. but what could possibly be the reason for it to have changed?

can anyone provide evidence that the people who have the money and connections to run this world are not perverts? my fragile little psyche would really like an example of how men are not animals who only react to the very absolutely worst of despicable sexual innuendo.

and lets give mr. tarantino the credit he deserves. a scholar of movie fiction and culture -- i am going to suggest that this movie was a little howto. howto reach into your own mind and the way you are in the world and how your perceptions are. reach into your life and find that prejudiced and uncultured 'yahoo' who has put the best part of himself into a box in his own mind and mistreats it. it is perhaps a bigger statment about mans fear of his own sexuality. like they did in this movie, find a tough guy in your own mind and use this tough guy to kill that part of you which has imprisoned yourself and kill that part of you that has been so abused by the expectations of others.

be bigger than your own box. or make your own maillist.

respectfully yours,

carol

further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo_(literature) for help with the sound:
find an infant, make it happy and listen gimp:look within

I don't expect the name will ever be changed, and that won't stop me from using or promoting GIMP.

I just wish there was less defensiveness about it. Clearly it offends a number of people. Trying to explain that away, or establish there is something wrong with anyone who would take offense, is not productive.

I would recommend a page (if there isn't already one) at gimp.org which addresses the name issue and explains the technical and other reasons why it won't change. If it was a wiki page, people would have an outlet for their opinions.

Thanks,
Kent

On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, [ISO-8859-1] Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P wrote:

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.> Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion. It is somewhat ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere. That's all you really need.

I agree. Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense.

This is not a problem for those who know that "GIMP" actually stands for "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably not know the expansion of the acronym either.

This is why it is so important for things like the release notes and other promotional material to talk about the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) making sure to first explain the name before using the acronym.

Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only "GIMP" in the splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what this stands for.

[...]

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to change the name. With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

I wanted to side step the issue of picking a better or different name, since it is impossible to please everyone and the original gimp is unlikely to change. Instead I had hoped to tackle the issue of providing infrastructure to make it possible. That would also mean there would be no excuse for further discussion until someone provided the necessary patches and infrastructure to make the name cleanly reconfigurable, something I would think you might want to encourage.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Abiword http://www.abisource.com
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Marc Lehmann wrote:

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 20:07:13 +0200 From: Marc Lehmann
To: Alan Horkan
Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

On Sat, Sep 30, 2006 at 05:06:44PM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

Maybe but we should all understand there is a derogatory impact

Is there?

Yes. You trimmed the bit of Sven's message where he agreed there was an impact but he disagreed as to the size and importance of that derogatory impact.

At the very least you have both me and the recent submitter saying there is a derogatory impact, that is all it takes. If you want more examples look at the mailing list archives you should find a few more occassions when this issue was raised and - unreliable thought it may be - you will also find many complaints about the name in places like slashdot and many others. You cannot deny there is an impact but it is not unreasonable to ask how important that impact may or may not be.

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some code. Isn't that the Free Software way? Look how Ubuntu has different versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those who have different needs should fork the project.

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some code. Isn't that the Free Software way? Look how Ubuntu has different versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those who have different needs should fork the project.

can you expand on this please?

three different names for Ubuntu or what?

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more offensive than this one here?

thanks for your continued effort to do this important thing...

carol

On 10/1/06, Carol Spears wrote:

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more offensive than this one here?

can you give an example of such a product?

regards chris

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006, Chris Mohler wrote:

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 23:36:37 -0500 From: Chris Mohler
To: Gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

[...]

I do not believe that GIMP should be renamed. Anyone who takes offense should simply grow up a little.

In your example the group did rename themselves, but yet you are using it as an example against renaming?

Renaming things in 'decent' or 'sanitary' ways is foolish at best.

I have pointed out that the current situation amounts to telling those with different opinions to "Fork off" but this seems suboptimal.

Both Gimpshop and Cinepaint two projects with different ideas have been criticised for forking instead of cooperating.

I am suggesting that although it is great that forking is possible it is not desirable. Very often forking is a big waste of everyones time and resources when they could instead be helping improve one shared codebase all can benefit from. It might just maybe be better if there was one less reason for people to fork.

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Marc Lehmann wrote:

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

Is there?

Yes.

I didn't see any evidence for that yet.

You have not disproved it exists, you just choose not to see it.

It is not surprising non-native English speakers have a different understanding of the word gimp.

At the very least you have both me and the recent submitter saying there is a derogatory impact, that is all it takes.

Certainly not. An "impact" certainly requires more than two people whining a bit :)

Now you are just being rude and dismissive, a smiley face doesn't make it any less so.

I provided links to the last time this was discussed and there was a bug report filed then too
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160890

You are arguing that a small impact is no impact at all.

You will find amny complains about many other aspects of gimp. That does not mean there is an actual problem.

No one claimed there are not other bigger problems. It might even be a good sign that name is the biggest complaint some users have.

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some code.

Dropping this topic would also bring this to a screeching halt. Depends on your...

Isn't that the Free Software way?

by which I mean to accept patches which allow things to be changed in a maintainable way rather than actively encouraging people to fork your project

(maybe that isn't the way, maybe the Free software way is to insist on big wasteful forks like the Emacs XEmacs split or the GGC EGCS!)

The free software idea is not to accept just any patch.

Crudely performing a find and replace to change the name to something else would be "just any patch" but abstracting out the name cleanly so GIMP could still be GIMP and also be something else too (perhaps depending on a configure option) would not be "just any patch". it should be possible to change the name in a way that doesn't create as much of a maintaince burden as forking. Abstracting out the APPNAME is a concept built into Docbook.

Look at this message where tml bemoans the effort wasted on forks such as Seashore
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.gimp.devel/8875

give users of the software the ability to change it, which is exactly whats being done here.

If "free softare" meant to accept any patch regardless of how silly, broken or useless it is (while increasing the maintainance burden) most

the suggestion is to allow patching to avoid the maintaince burden and wasted effort of a fork.

projects would be in rather bad state. No, free software means you can change it, it doesn't mean that everybody else is your servant and has to follow your orders.

Besides, there is no patch, AFAIK.

Sven said no patch would be accepted even if it existed so there is no reason for anyone to start one. The only option seems to be to fork.

Red herring. If you want to create another version of gimp under a different name, you are certainly allowed to do so, as has been said a number of times.
Wether you call it a fork or Kimp does not make any difference. Please note you can take the sources and change the name without creating a fork in the common sense,

Whether or not you call a set of unnofficial changes a fork or not there were plenty of complaints when the GIMPshop developer created his experiment.
https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-user/2006-February/007530.html

just as what you could do with diferent versions of Ubuntu.

Canonical dont let just anyone use the Ubuntu name, but they managed to get others with different ideas to help promote Ubuntu rather than push them away.

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan Horkan wrote:

BTW, there seems to be something broken with Marc's messages.

From: Marc Lehmann
To: Alan Horkan

Although they are sent to the list...

Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU

...they don't seem to appear there. Maybe someone could clear this up - it it a problem on Marc's end, the list or on my system?

Michael

Manish Singh wrote:

On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:38:02PM -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

can you proove your claim?

Sigh. Try googling "is gimp a derogatory term". If you read the sources at the first 10 hits and you still don't understand, then try the next 15000.

If I search for the string "is gimp a derogatory term" I get one hit.

If I search for:

is gimp a derogatory term

Not quoted, and therefore locating these as separate search keys, then I get 16,700 hits.

You need to learn how to use a search engine.

That is not proof.

Agreed.

Steve Bibayoff wrote:

Hello,

On 9/29/06, Roland Hordos wrote: ...

[...]If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title,

Yahoo

I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

:-)

How about the Macon Georgia hockey team:

Macon Whoopee.

They have a pretty good draw...

:)

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Hooters the restaurant.

Geoffrey wrote:

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Hooters the restaurant.

Not really a "product" per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters. Your example leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the quality of Hooter's clientele. Maybe that wasn't your intention... (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

Eric

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Carol Spears wrote:

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:28:44 -0700 From: Carol Spears
To: Alan Horkan ,
GIMPUser
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some code. Isn't that the Free Software way? Look how Ubuntu has different versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those who have different needs should fork the project.

There were people who wanted to use Ubuntu to target different audiences so without changing what they were the found a way to cooperate and make Kubuntu and Edubuntu happen. Different ideas but still part of Ubuntu.

can you expand on this please?

See above, if you need more you will need to explain more clearly.

I wasn't sure your question was necessarily directed at me. I am only responding because I do not want to ignore you but your message is very confusing.

three different names for Ubuntu or what?

I'm not sure what you mean, could you please rephrase your question.

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more offensive than this one here?

This question does not make sense to me. I did not target the gimp, I did not even start this discussion. All I am really asking is for developers to consider the possibility of making it easier to rebrand custom versions of the gimp for different audiences. Is there not something a little bit more that can be done for those who have issue with the name?

thanks for your continued effort to do this important thing...

???

Eric P wrote:

Geoffrey wrote:

Michael Schumacher wrote:

Roland Hordos wrote:

If you can point out a single commercial product that has mass use in North America that has a derogatory term in it's title, I'll withdraw my critique and be gone.

Hooters the restaurant.

Not really a "product" per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters. Your example leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the quality of Hooter's clientele. Maybe that wasn't your intention... (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

No, it certainly was not. In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters is not valid. GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know how Hooters gets it's name.

I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll find frequenting Hooters. :)

On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan wrote:

"lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet" http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

There are quite a few native English speakers who have pointed out that "gimp" means nothing to them, and I want to add myself to that list. Can we get past this and agree that it's just a cultural issue, and maybe generational as well. Not only did I never hear it in a derogatory context in my own country, but after 8 years in the US I haven't heard it used that way here either. Maybe people need to stop speaking and thinking in such a derogatory fashion. Renew your minds!

Oh, and if the project was to be renamed, maybe it would be offensive in some other language or culture. English is not the only language on the planet.

Owen (not from Aus)

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Geoffrey wrote:

Not really a "product" per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters. Your example leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the quality of Hooter's clientele. Maybe that wasn't your intention... (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

No, it certainly was not. In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters is not valid. GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know how Hooters gets it's name.

I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll find frequenting Hooters. :)

Do you have a problem with owls? The name is perfectly acceptable!

On Mon, Oct 02, 2006 at 01:58:57AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

On Sat, 30 Sep 2006, Carol Spears wrote:

Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 23:28:44 -0700 From: Carol Spears
To: Alan Horkan ,
GIMPUser
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Please Change the Derogatory Name

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 02:39:46AM +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:

As I said before offering to accept patches which made it possible to rebrand the gimp in a clean maintainable way without the need to fork could bring this dicussion to screeching halt until someone shows some code. Isn't that the Free Software way? Look how Ubuntu has different versions which all work together promoting Ubuntu without suggesting those who have different needs should fork the project.

There were people who wanted to use Ubuntu to target different audiences so without changing what they were the found a way to cooperate and make Kubuntu and Edubuntu happen. Different ideas but still part of Ubuntu.

This is not a valid comparision. You're suggestiong a wholesale name change, which is would mean major community and brand fragmentation. Somehow I don't think you'd be satisfied with "edugimp" or somesuch.

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more offensive than this one here?

This question does not make sense to me. I did not target the gimp, I did not even start this discussion. All I am really asking is for developers to consider the possibility of making it easier to rebrand custom versions of the gimp for different audiences. Is there not something a little bit more that can be done for those who have issue with the name?

You're the one continuing this ridiculous discussion. Right now there are more people who have voiced objections to this thread than people who have problems with the name.

If you really truly wanted to make GIMP more attractive to users, you'd be encouraging people to make patches that have features that people want, or fixing real bugs. That'd make much more of a difference than any name change would.

So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all the time you are wasting here.

-Yosh

Owen Berry wrote:

On 9/30/06, Alan Horkan wrote:

"lameness: disability of walking due to crippling of the legs or feet" http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agimp

This is the commonly understood meaning of the word for most English speakers and it is considered derogatory, like calling someone a cripple.

English-speaking countries: There's also Australian English, British English, Indian English, South African English, West African English, etc............. .... and I believe the majority of English speakers are actually Indian. The Oxford (Compact) English dictionary gives the derogatory sense of the word as N.American. So does the dictionary.com link quoted in an earlier post.

There are quite a few native English speakers who have pointed out that "gimp" means nothing to them, and I want to add myself to that list.

Me, likewise. (neither from Aus or the US)

Can we get past this and agree that it's just a cultural issue, and maybe generational as well. Not only did I never hear it in a derogatory context in my own country, but after 8 years in the US I haven't heard it used that way here either. Maybe people need to stop speaking and thinking in such a derogatory fashion. Renew your minds!

Oh, and if the project was to be renamed, maybe it would be offensive in some other language or culture.

Too true! there are plenty of hilarious accounts of commercial products with names that were highly offensive when exported.

English is not the only language on the planet.

Owen (not from Aus)

On Sunday 01 October 2006 05:15, Christoph Sturm wrote:

On 10/1/06, Carol Spears wrote:

please also explain the reason that you target GIMP and not some of the other perhaps better funded names of products that are as or more offensive than this one here?

can you give an example of such a product?

regards chris
_______________________________________________ Gimp-user mailing list
Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user

This discussion is getting circular. Hooters, Hustler, Vanity Fair, Spam to repeat some which have been named already.

Alan Horkan wrote:

On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, Geoffrey wrote:

Not really a "product" per se, but I'd say you nailed it.

Personally, I would never be caught dead in a Hooters. Your example leads me to believe you'd equate the quality of GIMP users with the quality of Hooter's clientele. Maybe that wasn't your intention... (boy, this thread has gone nutty).

No, it certainly was not. In my mind the comparison of GIMP to Hooters is not valid. GIMP is not intended to be derogatory, but we all know how Hooters gets it's name.

I'm a GIMP user as well, thus I don't equate myself with the scum you'll find frequenting Hooters. :)

Do you have a problem with owls? The name is perfectly acceptable!

Either you're joking or you're entirely clueless...

Either way, it's an unacceptable response to an issue that, up until this point I had assumed was a serious issue to you.

Raphaël Quinet wrote:

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 16:00:25 -0500, Eric P wrote:

Personally, I think the name should change not because I find GIMP derogatory but because I think a name that somewhat identified (even vaguely) what sphere the software is used it would be a boon.> Inkscape is an excellent name in my opinion. It is somewhat ambiguous, but you definitely know that software named Inkscape must have something to do with the artistic sphere. That's all you really need.

I agree. Among the various arguments about changing GIMP's name, this is probably the only one that makes a bit of sense. This is not a problem for those who know that "GIMP" actually stands for "GNU Image Manipulation Program" but those who do not know GIMP yet will probably not know the expansion of the acronym either. Besides, the acronym is rarely expanded in casual talks and most users see only "GIMP" in the splash screen and in the window titles so they may not even know what this stands for.

It may be interesting to associate the name of the application with what it does. If we look at GIMP and its derivatives, we have: GIMP - Meaningless unless it is expanded.

...

Maybe if we all make a concerted effort to call it by the shortened name of "GNU Image", people with hear "NewImage" (sounds more glitzy, like a "TM" should follow immediatly afterward), and the name could be self-fulfilling.

Dogwaffle - Bad.

...
Eww, sounds like somebody stepped in that one...;-)

PhotoPaint - Good.
For the vector drawing programs, names like InkScape, Skencil or Sketch are rather good.

Several other applications in the same area seem to have more interesting names. Maybe GIMP could become more popular if it switched to a name that is more directly associated with graphics. Maybe not. As Yosh mentioned, GIMP already has some mindshare and a new name would not only have to be good, it would have to be good enough to justify sacrificing the popularity of the current name.

So feel free to propose better names that are: - related to the graphics, photo or image manipulation domains - cool, inspiring
- unique so that we don't run into trademark problems - short enough to fit in the applications menu or window titles - suitable for most languages and cultures

If you find a name that meets all these criteria and would probably be immediately adopted by a marketing team if GIMP were a commercial product, then keep in mind that you would still have 90% chance to have the name rejected because some developers simply do not want to change the name. With that in mind, I wish you good luck...

-Raphaël

On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called "GIMP", not "the GIMP".

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special meaning.

Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack any sort of impact by lying.

Pulp Fiction: "Bring out the Gimp". Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first time. "Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction"..."Yes, I know. But it's an acronym"...

On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, Geoffrey wrote:

I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in a very long time. And I don't believe that's because people are more politically correct these days. I think it's a term that just isn't used in this way any longer.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

Disagree. I just heard it used yesterday. It's a fairly common word. You NOT hearing it is not as important if others are hearing it. Granted, I think it's far too late to change the name for lots of reasons, but let's not try and talk ourselves into believing that it was a good name choice or that it doesn't have serious derogatory context to most English-speakers who graduated from the fifth grade.

1 - The majority of GIMP users do not find the acronym GIMP offensive.

2 - US citizens do not have a world-wide "right" to make all the world inoffensive, nor do they constitute the majority of english-speakers on earth.

3 - Making sure everything is inoffensive to every person on the planet is futile.

Therefore, I find the acronym GIMP totally acceptable. Through daily life, I find the outside world to be far more offensive than *any* word. For example, take the zealots who would change the name of a well-known image manipulation program, all over some obscure, localized, negative connotation. What's next, chop the penis off of Michelangelo's "David"? I'm sure that his stone member offends *some* people.

One last thought - I think it's quite possible that over the coming decades, GIMP's growing popularity might entirely strip the negative meaning from the word "gimp". Now there's a happy thought amongst all of this belly-aching...

Chris

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called "GIMP", not "the GIMP".

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special meaning.

Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack any sort of impact by lying.

Pulp Fiction: "Bring out the Gimp". Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first time. "Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction"..."Yes, I know. But it's an acronym"...

The fact that so many people have such poor taste in movies shouldn't cloud your view of the issue. I never saw the movie, thus I don't make the connection.

I'm sure that we all find a reference to a word in a movie or book and turn it into such an argument.

Can you please for the love of God give this up.

Put an end to this thread.

On Sun, Oct 01, 2006 at 10:02:17PM +0200, Michael Schumacher wrote:

Alan Horkan wrote:

BTW, there seems to be something broken with Marc's messages.

From: Marc Lehmann
To: Alan Horkan

Although they are sent to the list...

Cc: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU

...they don't seem to appear there. Maybe someone could clear this up - it it a problem on Marc's end, the list or on my system?

Marc posts from a different address than the one he uses to subscribe to the list. It's up to him to fix this how he sees fit. (One option would be to subscribe two addresses, and configure one not to receive mail)

-Yosh

Manish Singh (yosh@gimp.org) wrote (in reply to Alan Horkan):

So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all the time you are wasting here.

Yosh has decided that Alans posts to this list will be moderated. Alan has asked me to bring this to your attention. If you are expecting an answer from Alan related to this topic you won't get it on list.

I am deeply troubled by this unilateral descision of yosh to control the content of the gimp-user list. While I do think that this thread is blown out of proportion and the topic gets stale for several years now, I want to make clear that I absolutely have a problem with this descision of yosh. While this discussion is inconvenient it is on-topic for gimp-user (although not likely to get a resolution).

And I do not think that non-trivial contributions to the GIMP should be required to be allowed to post to gimp-user unmoderatedly. The "user" in gimp-user refers to people *using* the gimp, and Alan is a long-time gimp user and even *has* contributed to the Gimp source. A lot of the core developers might sometimes disagree with Alan, but that does not justify blocking Alan from communication via this list.

Also I'd like to see a short notice to the list with an explantation why someone is going to be moderated. Having clear guidelines on our webpages on what is acceptable and what not would make this easy.

Bye, Simon

On Wed, Oct 04, 2006 at 11:23:14AM +0200, Simon Budig wrote:

Manish Singh (yosh@gimp.org) wrote (in reply to Alan Horkan):

So Alan, before you make anymore posts relating to this topic again, you need to make a non-trivial contribution to GIMP yourself to justify all the time you are wasting here.

Yosh has decided that Alans posts to this list will be moderated. Alan has asked me to bring this to your attention. If you are expecting an answer from Alan related to this topic you won't get it on list.

I am deeply troubled by this unilateral descision of yosh to control the content of the gimp-user list. While I do think that this thread is blown out of proportion and the topic gets stale for several years now, I want to make clear that I absolutely have a problem with this descision of yosh. While this discussion is inconvenient it is on-topic for gimp-user (although not likely to get a resolution).

The discussion was going nowhere, and several people called for the thread to end. Alan is not the type to listen to such things though, and feels his agenda trumps all else.

I will note that he posted not one, not two, but *three* posts on the subject after I said he needs to stop. If he'd actually listened, and contributed some real content to the list instead, complaining about this would have much more merit that it does now.

And I do not think that non-trivial contributions to the GIMP should be required to be allowed to post to gimp-user unmoderatedly. The "user" in gimp-user refers to people *using* the gimp, and Alan is a long-time gimp user and even *has* contributed to the Gimp source. A lot of the core developers might sometimes disagree with Alan, but that does not justify blocking Alan from communication via this list.

Contributions are not a requirement to post unmoderated, but they are after egregious list abuse.

Alan isn't blocked completely, any posts which actually help GIMP users will of course be allowed through.

Also I'd like to see a short notice to the list with an explantation why someone is going to be moderated. Having clear guidelines on our webpages on what is acceptable and what not would make this easy.

Fueling the flames of a useless thread, that several people have voiced as useless is bad. Being a repeat offender of this is grounds for moderation. A 10 post thread isn't that big a deal, but continual adding to an already 50+ posts thread that is clearly going nowhere is.

For people who say that you can just ignore things, I think forcing over 1000 people to take the time to reconfigure their mail software is time sorely wasted.

I also feel that this topic is not really relevant to *using* GIMP, so I'd like to ask that anyone who would like to follow up to do so off-list, Ccing Simon and myself.

-Yosh

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 15:10, Geoffrey wrote:

I've also not heard anyone use the term gimp in the way you indicate in a very long time. And I don't believe that's because people are more politically correct these days. I think it's a term that just isn't used in this way any longer.

I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.

Disagree. I just heard it used yesterday. It's a fairly common word. You NOT hearing it is not as important if others are hearing it. Granted, I think it's far too late to change the name for lots of reasons, but let's not try and talk ourselves into believing that it was a good name choice or that it doesn't have serious derogatory context to most English-speakers who graduated from the fifth grade.

Brendan wrote:

On Friday 29 September 2006 14:05, Sven Neumann wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, 2006-09-29 at 06:54 -0600, Roland Hordos wrote:

While all other credible opensource projects are gaining ground in a professional IT setting, the GIMP is being held back because of the instant derogatory impact of the name.

First of all, it's called "GIMP", not "the GIMP".

Then, can you proove your claim? I very much doubt that you can because it's just FUD. For most people on this planet, GIMP doesn't have any special meaning.

Yeah, total disagreement on this one. Please, don't make your argument lack any sort of impact by lying.

Pulp Fiction: "Bring out the Gimp". Guy in a leather outfit, with a mask. This is what 90% of the people say to me when I mention the Gimp for the first time. "Hey, you remember in Pulp Fiction"..."Yes, I know. But it's an acronym"...

Chris Mohler wrote:

1 - The majority of GIMP users do not find the acronym GIMP offensive.

I actually have no problems with the name "GIMP", nor do I care if the authors choose to change the name, just as long as it doesn't happen often.

2 - US citizens do not have a world-wide "right" to make all the world inoffensive, nor do they constitute the majority of english-speakers on earth.

3 - Making sure everything is inoffensive to every person on the planet is futile.

I agree with your other two points also. I'd hate to have to start referring to "bigots" as "Persons of Prejudice" or "zealots" as the "Moderationally Challenged" ;-). The open source community usually has a good sense of humor, and although I thought "GnuImage" was a tongue-in-cheek sort of suggestion, I made the post anyway since it could actually be a viable compromise if the name Really Needed to be changed.

-Ken