A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8? It's very hard to work within one window, especially if you're using more than one monitor (and edit many images)

lg richy

On Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:49:22 +0200 Martin Nordholts wrote:

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

/ Martin

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a single window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..." Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don´t like to see a lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

/ Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

The single big problem with the MDI was when the toolbox and / or other boxes remain on top of other opened windows when you minimize the canvas window. Now with GIMP 2.7 things are changed so MDI will not be such a problem. But indeed a single window app. was a necessary step. Will be super OK if we can revert to MDI ( for designers with 2 or 3 monitors will be OK too ). At least users will have choices...

2009/9/6 Ramón Miranda :

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a single window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..." Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don´t like to see a lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

 / Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

--
_______________________________________ Ramon Miranda
http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a

single

window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..." Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see a lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

/ Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You coul also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this perfectly and still was a single window program.

If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back and fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when I'm working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in that situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors despite the program being single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

David G said

always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's

layout too. Photoshop allowed this

perfectly and still was a single window program.

i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch" space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the workspace. i hope you will understand me.

2009/9/6 David G.

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a

single

window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..." Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see a lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

/ Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You coul
also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp
already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this perfectly and still was a single window program.

If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the
right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single
box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with
the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem
to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back and
fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different
programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when I'm
working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line
and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task
bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in that
situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command
window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better
for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for
long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about
being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors despite the program being single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry
in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

--
David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow."

But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility windows are minimized too.

2009/9/6 Ramón Miranda :

David G said

always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
perfectly and still was a single window program.

i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch" space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the workspace. i hope you will understand me.

2009/9/6 David G.

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a

single

window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a lot..." Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to see a
lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

 / Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

  I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted. You coul
also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp
already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this perfectly and still was a single window program.

  If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a single windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the
right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single
box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with
the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are not thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is a powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem
to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have
several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU
power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for professional artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs back and
fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work
just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different
programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the
task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes when I'm
working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line
and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task
bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying in that
situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command
window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you
get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better
for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer the single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of
too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for
long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very
least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many people prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about
being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors despite the program being  single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that the issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry
in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

--
David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

--
_______________________________________ Ramon Miranda
http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

On Sun, 2009-09-06 at 06:37 +0200, David G. wrote:

I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second monitor because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or at least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.

PhotoShop (e.g. CS2) is not MDI -- you can drag images out of the "desktop" window too. And it's not single-window either. Instead, there's a "desktop" window, but that's really there (I think) just to make sure other program windows don't interfere visually, and to make people think it's still an MDI program. Of course, it also minimises completely, unlike gimp where I can have two images minimised and one open (which is good) and then if I close the image that's open (not minimized i mean), I am left with a toolbox and no images, so I no longer have access to any menus.

GIMP already shows as a single entry in the gnome taskbar, here at least, so there's "minimise all" available now.

At any rate, Martin, I'm sure you already know people use "MDI" loosely to mean "behaviour I'd like to see, involving my perception of fewer windows" and "single window" to mean "multiple windows that minimise together" or "program that can't really be used to work on multiple projects at the same time and hence is less confusing for me" :-)

Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of where images are being "exported") but the use case is central (I think) to how "single window" needs to work.

Liam

Martin Nordholts wrote:

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

I personally don't have any objection.

The current multi-window interface is not bad (it's actually quite useful in a multi-monitor environment) but it's so radically different from that of most other raster image editors than many people quickly deem it as unintuitive, too hard to use and because of it don't take the program seriously as a *powerful* open-source alternative to similar commercial programs.

An official single windowed GIMP would draw much attention from both end users and potentially contributing developers and would definitely be beneficial to the whole project in the medium to long run.

To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a single entry in the taskbar and all the Windows minimize when you minimize one that's great for me, the multiple windows thing and being able to put them anywhere you want doesn't bother me, like I said it's just that I think that a single entry in the task bar becomes much easier to manage in a multi application workflow. Again if Gimp 2.7 fixes this that will be great.

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered. Luckily this recovery system seems to be pretty solid in my graphics card system otherwise I would have a lot of Vista crashes because of this. I Have Windows Vista Ultimate 64 Bit running in a Intel core i7 CPU and two Evga 260 GTX graphic cards running in SLI mode with 12 gigas of DDR3 memory, when I first installed Gimp in this machine it crashed a lot when I tried to use color correction tools like Brighness and Contrast adjustments, as soon as I tried to use one of those Gimp crashed but when it was updated to version 2.6.7 that was totally fixed (that bug was giving a lot of people problems cause I found out online) but I still have the selection markee issue that makes the graphic system unstable quickly, any ideas about what could be causing this? In my XP machines it works just fine.

"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always

shows

as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications

workflow."

But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility windows are minimized too.

2009/9/6 Ramon Miranda :

David G said

always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
perfectly and still was a single window program.

i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch" space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the workspace. i hope you will understand me.

2009/9/6 David G.

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a

single

window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a

lot..."

Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to

see

a
lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

/ Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second

monitor

because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or

at

least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.

You

coul
also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp
already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this perfectly and still was a single window program.

If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a

single

windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the
right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single
box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with
the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are

not

thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is

a

powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem
to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have
several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU
power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for

professional

artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs

back

and
fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work
just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different
programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the
task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes

when

I'm
working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line
and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task
bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying

in

that
situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command
window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you
get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better
for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer

the

single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of
too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for
long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very
least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many

people

prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about
being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors despite the program being single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that

the

issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry
in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's

just

easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

--
David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

--
_______________________________________ Ramon Miranda
http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM, David G. wrote:

To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a

Behold:

http://www.gimptalk.com/forum/gimp-2-7-beta,-last-stable-is-2-6-7-also-for-windows-t37771.html

Yea, verily.

David

Liam wrote:

Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of where images are being "exported") but the use case is central (I think) to how "single window" needs to work.

OK, I am listening.

can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?

thanks,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

yep - we have here 2 separated points Vista
GIMP

Vista - it's a problem for Microsoft too not only for users - maybe for a simple user (mails, internet, office programs) Vista is just perfect, but when you have to use Vista for more serious tasks, many peoples feels like you -> Vista = problems where XP was OK. Especially with graphic drivers Vista count a lot of holes - ask gamers...

So is not a GIMP problem. GIMP use GTK (for windows) which should work OK with Vista. Anyway this is not a GIMP problem. I revert my second OS back to XP too (first is Ubuntu).

About GIMP 2.7 - I put GIMP 2.7 for windows on a web space - you can download and try it from here :
http://www.lady-anion.com/gimp-2.7.0-i686-setup.exe

Because is a development release - in Windows, the text tool (yep there are a direct text tool as in Photoshop) can crash your GIMP so be aware.

2009/9/7 David G. :

To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7 so far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7 creates a single entry in the taskbar and all the Windows minimize when you minimize one that's great for me, the multiple windows thing and being able to put them anywhere you want doesn't bother me, like I said it's just that I think that a single entry in the task bar becomes much easier to manage in a multi application workflow. Again if Gimp 2.7 fixes this that will be great.

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered. Luckily this recovery system seems to be pretty solid in my graphics card system otherwise I would have a lot of Vista crashes because of this. I Have Windows Vista Ultimate 64 Bit running in a Intel core i7 CPU and two Evga 260 GTX graphic cards running in SLI mode with 12 gigas of DDR3 memory, when I first installed Gimp in this machine it crashed a lot when I tried to use color correction tools like Brighness and Contrast adjustments, as soon as I tried to use one of those Gimp crashed but when it was updated to version 2.6.7 that was totally fixed (that bug was giving a lot of people problems cause I found out online) but I still have the selection markee issue that makes the graphic system unstable quickly, any ideas about what could be causing this? In my XP machines it works just fine.

"I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always

shows

as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's just easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications

workflow."

But GIMP 2.7 solve that. Maybe you don't use 2.7. A single entry in taskbar and when the canvas window is minimized all other utility windows are minimized too.

2009/9/6 Ramon Miranda :

David G said

always opened like this and Gimp already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this
perfectly and still was a single window program.

i would like to have also the ability so save my workspace and change "inside" the gimp from. for example. paint workspace to a "photoretouch" space . instead having different sessionrc and quiting gimp to change the workspace. i hope you will understand me.

2009/9/6 David G.

I like modular structures becouse they allows more custom changes. So this
way you can change your layout of panels. But if all it would be in a

single

window , ithink lot of users would thanks that. becouse i hear a

lot..."

Gimp is nice , but his gui is ugly and uncomfortable.i don?t like to

see

a
lot of panels flying through my desktop"

Lets give it a try to a single window mode

2009/9/5 Martin Nordholts

On 09/05/2009 06:22 PM, Richard Nespithal wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release

is it possible, to switch back to multi-window mode in 2.8?

That is not really relevant to this thread. (But yes of course it will be possible.)

 / Martin

--

My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

  I don't know why people mention so much that if you create a single window
Gimp that that it will not allow you to put your tools in a second

monitor

because I used Photoshop also many times and despite it being a single window
program it allows you to put the toolbox and the parameter windows (or

at

least it did in some older versions) in a separate monitor and leave the main
program window all for editing pictures if that's what people wanted.

You

coul
also save the workspace layout so Photoshop always opened like this and Gimp
already has the ability to save it's layout too. Photoshop allowed this perfectly and still was a single window program.

  If that's the concern of people then perhaps Gimp should become a

single

windows program that allows this, that allows you to put the toolbox and the
right utilities window in a separate monitor while still preserving a single
box or entry in the taskbar. In my opinion having a single entry in the taskbar is much better because it's far less messy, the biggest problem with
the multiple entries interface is that some people seem to think that everybody opens Gimp only here and there and ocasioanlly and they are

not

thinking of the profesional users that use Gimp seriously (and yes it is

a

powerfull program already and it can be used seriously) and some people seem
to be forgetting that some people like me for example many, many times have
several windows and applications running simultaneously and when I mean several I mean a lot, I find myself many times with 10 or 12 aplications and/or utilities or more open at the same time (with todays memorys and CPU
power this is very possible and more common than some people think) and switching among them and believe me this is not uncommon for

professional

artists that are jumping from 3D to illustration to bitmap editor, video editing, Flash and/or a web page layout program or even more programs

back

and
fort like a carrousel. In todays workflow you can find many users that work
just like that instead of the persons that just open a bitmap editor ocasionally and the issue is that when you have a lot of windows of different
programs open at the same time a program like Gimp can become a mess in the
task bar in MS Windows or even in other Operating Systems. Sometimes

when

I'm
working like that the taskbar is so full that it creates a second entry line
and you have to switch between the first line of items or entries in the task
bar and the secong and with Gimps it gets sort of confusing or anoying

in

that
situation and I use Blender too which creates a second window for the command
window and many times a third windows for the rendering window and then you
get a mess. Programs that have a single entry in the task bar are far better
for this type of workflow, they are easier to manage.

Maybe the Gimp team should make a survey to see how many people prefer

the

single entry or single window program over the multiple ones. This issue of
too many windows have been a source of complain of many, many Gimp users for
long years and I think that it would be foolhardy to ignore and at the very
least the Gimp team should consider making a survey to see how many

people

prefer the single window interface but remember what I told you at first about
being able to put the toolbox pane and the right pane in other monitors despite the program being  single window or single entry program.

I think that part of the confussion comes precisely from the fact that

the

issue of being a single window program and a program that has a single entry
in the task bar are really two separate things.

I personally, deffinitely prefer the Gimp being a program that always shows
as a single entry in the taskbar that's really my main concern, it's

just

easier to manage single entry programs with a multiple applications workflow.

--
David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

--
_______________________________________ Ramon Miranda
http://ramonmirandavisualart.blogspot.com http://code.google.com/p/gps-gimp-paint-studio/

_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

--
David G. (via www.gimpusers.com)
_______________________________________________ Gimp-developer mailing list
Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

On Monday, September 7, 2009, 2:56:40, David G. wrote:

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee. When I activate a selection markee the graphics driver starts to have problems and starts to flicker and shortly after that the Nvidia cards reports to me that the graphics system has crashed and that it has been recovered.

Are you using the latest drivers from www.nvidia.com? Anyway, even if you are, this is not GIMP's fault, but a problem in the driver itself.

BTW, there is a GIMP 2.7.0 installer for Windows on SourceForge.

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote:

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

Martin, there always will be different opinions on the matter. The best you can do it write such a great patch that rejecting will be as wrong as genocide :)

Alexandre

Von: "David G."

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.

Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read about, though.

On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...

Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company, insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.

HTH, Michael

Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager. The current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

The windows (toolbox and layerbox) won't stay on top if the behavior set to utility window.

So hoping for overall better interface :)

Best of luck.

Regards

No objections--- mostly I would urge developers to plan what they're going to do, make the changes, and stick to it. I know that's always been the plan but it doesn't feel like it when you're using the different versions. The random UI changes that appear in each release throw off folks who use the Gimp day to day and have to keep relearning behaviors that they are comfortable with or have become muscle memory over years. It would be like ^x being remapped in every release of emacs. Sure the original isn't intuitive but it's far more important to JUST STOP CHANGING IT. :-)

All the window wanking with different UI/WM behavior in every version is just starting to feel like destructive churn :-( I know there are reasons, I'm just saying keep it in mind as one more competetive pressure.

Monty

On Monday 07 September 2009 20:13:23 Martin Nordholts wrote:

On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:

Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager. The current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's nothing GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in a sane way

There actually is a bug report about it against kwin. However kwin/KDE developers do not consider it a bug, but more like a wish list item and cant be bothered about implementing it. Another complaining voice might perhaps get someone interested.

--Alexia

Well the last drivers I downloaded was about three weeks ago so I think that it may be too early too check, perhaps in a month or two and yes I did think too that it could be an Nvidia driver problem and if a lot of users using other graphic cards are not having the same problem that's more reason to suspect.

Von: "David G."

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.

Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might

want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read about, though.

On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of

problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...

Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company,

insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.

HTH,
Michael

Yes I know, but those are beta releases and many people say that using the text tool crashes their Gimp 2.7 a lot. As a general rule I avoid beta software, not always but most of the time because I usually rather wait for the stable release. I don't mind waiting a bit longer for the new single entry in the task bar feature, right now I'm more concern with the graphic card issue with the selection markee, I will report that to Nvidia just in case. If it turns out to be a bug with the graphic driver instead of Gimp the more users with this problem that report it to Nvidia the merrier.

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 10:26 AM, David G. wrote:

To SorinN: I use Windows (Vista 64 bit and XP) and I only have Gimp 2.6.7

so

far which is the one that is available for Windows now, if Gimp 2.7

creates a

Behold:

http://www.gimptalk.com/forum/gimp-2-7-beta,-last-stable-is-2-6-7-also-for-windows-t37771.html

Yea, verily.

David

Martin Nordholts wrote:

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

::snip? SNIP!::

Hi, all.

I might be daft, but what exactly _is_ a single-window mode. It feels like I'm the odd one out, here, and that everyone else knows what's going on, but I can't really imagine that's the case. What window are we talking about?

The phrase "single-window mode" really means absolutely nothing to me. Can someone draw a simple mock-up to make it clear?

--xsdg

Omari Stephens wrote:

The phrase "single-window mode" really means absolutely nothing to me. Can
someone draw a simple mock-up to make it clear?

I will blog about it soon, so you know what I am up to.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

On Mon, 2009-09-07 at 09:50 +0200, peter sikking wrote:

Liam wrote:

Right now gimp is broken for working on multiple projects (the file/save changes have rendered it too hard to keep track of where images are being "exported") but the use case is central (I think) to how "single window" needs to work.

OK, I am listening.

can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?

First, note that I said "right now" -- although strictly speaking I should have said a month ago, I need to update.

So there are some unfinished details, and some of these don't matter too much individually but add up, rather like the chairs at MacDonalds, designed to be comfortable only for twenty minutes...

The biggest problems I have right now -- and I know ways to address the biggest have been discussed -- are

(1) "file->export as" (regardless of what it's called) goes to the wrong directory: it needs default to the same directory as "save as", that is, the directory with the original-precious-image. I could happily live with a preference for default export directory, but "My Documents" really, really doesn't cut it outside of a family's computer for saving snapshots... (Desktop would be as bad)

(2) there's no menu in the toolbox, and if you have the toolbox and no image window, you have to open a minimsed image window just to get to file->new

Use case: . scan an image. Maybe export it to scannd-images/Vesalius/raw-pages/folio309.png for archiving.

Work on it, off and on, during the course of the day.

Save it to scanned-images/Vesalius/cleaned/folio309.png for archiving when done, and then (maybe an hour or two later) make 5 jpeg images at different sizes, all to be exported to scanned-images/Vesalius/jpeg/

. Meanwhile, use "open image in gimp" on an interesting photo of a rock that someone pasted into IRC. Hmm, let's try levels->auto on that and export to /tmp (or Desktop, don't care) to send back for a discussion about the algorithm

. at the same time I'm editing a photo I took for work, but that's on hold for an hour waiting someone to get back from lunch

. I work on the photo for a bit. Then I minimise it so I have the scan and the work photo minimised in the task bar, and the rock photo open. I edited it, export it (where?) and close it.

. Now I just have the GIMP toolbox visible, and no image windows.

. The person at work is back but wants me to try something new, so I have to make a new image. Hmm, I have a gimp toolbox but no File menu, that's fucked. Let's have at least a right-click menu on the toolbox drop area please, with File and Window.

. Now I go to save (or export) that Vesalius scan. Is it the first time I've exported? can't tell. Where does it want to put the image? My Bloody Documents. So now I find a terminal window, navigate to th directory with the Vesalius images, do "pwd", copy the result, and paste it into the file chooser and hit enter. Oops, overwrote the filename, hit cancel and start again. It's fun, this.

. OK, back to the work photo, time to do file->export. Where will it go? Where was I when I was working on it?

So I'm working in parallel on several different projects, each with their own folders, and I'd actually be just as happy in many ways with three entirely separate gimp instances... and starting an entirely new gimp for a new image so I'd get the menus.

Sorry for a long posting, I hope it's a bit clearer. There are some other details like the export dialogues having 'save" instead of "overwrite" or "export" on them that might already have been fixed.

A pull-down of active and recent directories on the file choosers would help, but not as much as having bookmarks + the current image's export directory starting off the same as the import or save directory.

A final note -- I scale the image, export as jpeg, sharpen, scale again, sharpen come back half an hour later and want to know at which points I exported as jpeg; with 2.4, I could undo repeatedly until the * in the image window went away, and that was when I'd saved as png. An icon in the undo history would help a lot here.

Hope this helps!

Liam

On Monday 07 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:

On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:

Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager.

The

current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's nothing GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in a sane way

You mean something like:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177025 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178074

If you know of other people complaining, maybe we may sway the developers of KDE to do something about it by combining the reports. I have little hope though...
regards
Karl Günter

On Saturday 05 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

Why not have it both ways - by simply making the toolboxes dockable... That's the way many programs handle things like that and it's working like a charm. IMHO this would sort out any complaints about a change in usability as the undocked toolboxes could behave as they would currently... regards
Karl Günter

On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 17:49, Martin Nordholts wrote:

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

Please come back on topic. The question was not if or how. The if is answered by Martin with a yes and the how will be written down by Peter. The question was if in 2.8 or in 2.10?

I think this can't be answered before we see what Peter has designed. So this complete discussion is pointless.

Regards, Tobias

Not that one.. I am talking about this https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=172615

There are lots of people and duplicate bug report for the same but never fixed :(

On Monday 07 September 2009, Martin Nordholts wrote:

On 09/07/2009 07:07 PM, Shashwat wrote:

Whatever you guys do. Please make it work with KDE kwin windows manager.

The

current UI doesn't work with Kwin or Compiz.

You'll have to file a bug report with those window managers, there's

nothing

GIMP can sensibly do about them not supporting the utility window hint in

a

sane way

You mean something like:
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=177025 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=178074

If you know of other people complaining, maybe we may sway the developers of

KDE to do something about it by combining the reports. I have little hope though...
regards
Karl Gunter

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

/ Martin

particularly'm used to working with multiwindowing not that bother me too much work a single window, but is more customizable necessary checks to see which work and part with to see your desktop while you do this is something I've always liked to of gimp, which could see other screens in the background while working in gimp ..

Thanks .. Happy-Word.

On 09/11/09 12:46, harold wrote:

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

/ Martin

FWIW, a -1 from me on single window and a +1 on the existing multi-window. Single windows are generally too cluttered up with stuff you don't need at the moment and use screen space inefficiently.

particularly'm used to working with multiwindowing not that bother me too much work a single window, but is more customizable necessary checks to see which work and part with to see your desktop while you do this is something I've always liked to of gimp, which could see other screens in the background while working in gimp ..

Thanks .. Happy-Word.

On 09/13/2009 12:41 AM, Chris Moller wrote:

FWIW, a -1 from me on single window and a +1 on the existing multi-window. Single windows are generally too cluttered up with stuff you don't need at the moment and use screen space inefficiently.

Let's clear this up once and for all: The single-window mode is just a mode, multi-window will still be possible. GIMP 2.8 will support both a single-window interface and a multi-window interface.

/ Martin

I would be in favor of an optional single-window mode. On my laptop it would work well. On my desktop, I have dual monitors, so it makes sense to split the windows up.

So yeah, +1 vote for single-window mode.

One thing I'd like is to have multiple columns of dockable dialogs per window, instead of limiting to just one column. Also, I'd find it useful to dock some dockable dialogs into the image window but not all of them. Just putting that out there.

Liam R E Quin wrote:

OK, I am listening.

can you explain to me how this worked better in 2.6?

First, note that I said "right now" -- although strictly speaking I should have said a month ago, I need to update.

Sorry that I did not follow up on this sooner, but it may have been a good thing. now that you have updated your build, can you please state how much of the grievances are left?

I suspect most of them are gone, when things are implemented to spec.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

Von: "David G."

In another Gimp related issue, in mi new Windows Vista machine Gimp 2.6.7 crashes the graphic card driver a lot when I activate a selection markee.

Nvidia has corrected the bug in at least some of their drivers, you might

want to check for updates. I think that it had been XP in the cases I've read about, though.

On a side note, I had a very hard time convincing users that this kind of

problem (display flickers when using a selection in GIMP with a very specific Nvidia card, and others don't have the same problem) is something that should be reported to Nvidia. They insisted that the problem has to be in GIMP...

Don't be afraid to send reports about bug you've encountered to any company,

insitution, service, ... . If they never hear about it, they can't fix it.

HTH,
Michael

Update: I checked again in the Nvidia site and there was a driver update shortly after I installed the most recent I could find there meaning that I downloaded the newest drivers at about the first week of August and when I checked after this last post I saw that Nvidia had posted new drivers on the 20th of August so I downloaded and installed those and the bug seems to be gone, I have not noticed the screen flashing anymore when I activate the selection markee and the problem happened happened fairly quickly after doing that and the GPU has not reported that it has crashed and recovered again so I think that it was definitely a driver problem, great! I can use my Gimp again!!

Yep single window mode will take away all the clutter that has right now for newbie :)

Duh.. I reviewed Gimp 2.6 for Indian Linux magz, and now running a beginner tutus for the same. Now i have to revamp the tutorials again :P

http://www.linuxforu.com/

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:22 PM, peter sikking wrote:

I suspect most of them are gone, when things are implemented to spec.

BTW, I'm really curious what you will decide to do with the currently existing Image Chooser combobox for SDI mode :)

Alexandre

Hi,

We are making pretty good progress towards GIMP 2.8 which has turned into an "everything but GEGL" release. I think it would make sense to also go for a single-window mode in 2.8 and not 2.10 as originally planned.

By doing this we will be able to focus all resources on integrating GEGL once 2.8 is released. Integrating GEGL will require rather big changes to the code base, and I don't think having one guy working in parallel on another feature that requires big code changes is a good idea.

A single-window mode would also turn 2.8 into a remarkable release, with both layer-groups and a single-window mode, none of which were originally planned for 2.8.

I intend to start working on this asap, and peter will work on a UI spec as soon as he gets time. If you have objections, please speak up.

/ Martin

Greeeeeeat a will waiting for. My users are needing this way.

hey guys,

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

enjoy,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

hey guys,

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

enjoy,

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.

Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.

An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I guess, you get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you could rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float image. To make it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too, just as much as the polaroids?

jolie wrote:

Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.

ah, thanks.

Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.

An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I guess, you
get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you could
rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float image. To make
it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too, just as
much as the polaroids?

I have really to ask what you expect from that float image, and how different
that would be from multi-widow mode.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

jolie wrote:

Read your blog twice and think all the ideas are great.

ah, thanks.

Commented there too but that was before I read it for the second time.

An idea occurred to me. When you tear of the tabs, or thumbnail I guess, you
get a polaroid. Really nice idea. But wouldn't it be great if you could
rightclick on a thumbnail and chose between polaroid and float image. To make
it so that the image you're working on has maximum flexibility too, just as
much as the polaroids?

I have really to ask what you expect from that float image, and how different
that would be from multi-widow mode.

--ps

founder + principal interaction architect man + machine interface works

http://mmiworks.net/blog : on interaction architecture

For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open below the GIMP windows.
To get GIMP back you have to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

In a single window interface the background IS gimp. Click next to an image by accident and nothing will happen, you'll still be in GIMP.

This is the main reason for me why I am looking forward to a single window mode.

Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time some more thought.
IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1 example) Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and multiple windows.

Thank you,
Jolie

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:30 PM, jolie S wrote:

Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time some more thought.
IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1 example) Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and multiple windows.

Peter's specification does give the option to have multiple images open at once. Perhaps you mean having multiple images both visible and workable-upon at once. That's certainly important for things like cloning, as you said.

Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2 images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window format AFAICS.)

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:51 +0930, David Gowers wrote:

Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2 images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window format AFAICS.)

Do you mean that the windows would be too small, e.g. on a 30" "cimena" display or with 5 LCD monitors :), or do you mean that the toolkit only supports two panes??

For cloning you only need a tiny part of the source visible...

Liam

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:

For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open below the GIMP windows.
To get GIMP back you have to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to hide the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side effect of raising them to the top of the window stack.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:57 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote:

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 20:51 +0930, David Gowers wrote:

Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2 images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window format AFAICS.)

Do you mean that the windows would be too small, e.g. on a 30" "cimena" display or with 5 LCD monitors :), or do you mean that the toolkit only supports two panes??

Too small (except on a 30" single display. 5 LCD monitors is not a situation in which I can reasonably imagine you would want to use single-window mode; feel free to contradict me if you have experience with this.)

There are no relevant GTK+ limitations. However I understand that with the current GUI setup of GIMP, horizontal splits like |IMG|IMG|
are easier to implement in terms of visual organization.

For cloning you only need a tiny part of the source visible...

This is only true IMO if the source auto-scrolls as you clone. Otherwise, especially when you need to be reasonably precise, you may need a relatively large display (for example, 150x150 area @ 300% zoom = 450x450)

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:36:36 +0300 From: Ville =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E4tsi?=

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote: > For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what > happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window > of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown > on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had > visibly open below the GIMP windows. To get GIMP back you have > to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to hide the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side effect of raising them to the top of the window stack.

Another way that won't be to everybody's choice is to use focus follows mouse without autoraise, and use a shortcut to raise windows to the top.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 8:30 PM, jolie S wrote:

Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same

time

some more thought.
IMO being able to work on more images at the same time is VITAL for a professional image editing program. (just think of cloning to name 1

example)

Please give your users the options to do so in both modes, single and

multiple

windows.

Peter's specification does give the option to have multiple images open at

once.

Perhaps you mean having multiple images both visible and workable-upon at once. That's certainly important for things like cloning, as you said.

Perhaps a split-panel option for single window mode would resolve this. (I believe we could still only reasonably show a maximum of 2 images at once; this is simply a limitation of the single-window format AFAICS.)

"Being able to work on more images at the same" does indeed mean workable-upon.

You could let the open and visible images you're working on at the same time float all over the screen. Just as the user wants it. Be it underneath or over the toolbox. ( a preference would be good for that.) Paint shop pro does it that way, so does photoshop and my old pre-GIMP software Picture Publisher did it that way too, and they are all single window interfaces. It's definitely not something that can't be done.

Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:36:36 +0300 From: Ville =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E4tsi?=

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote: > For me the big difference is usability. When I work in GIMP what > happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window > of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown > on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had > visibly open below the GIMP windows. To get GIMP back you have > to click on all your GIMP windows in the taskbar.

Actually you can work around this problem in your window manager by selecting an image window and pressing the tab key twice. First to hide the docks and the second to bring them back. This has the side effect of raising them to the top of the window stack.

I made a small video of what I mean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T8jCDrYtmk

I hope that is clear :\

Hitting tabs twice doesn't work for bringing everything back. A "single window" like in Picture Publisher, just to give an example, makes sure that this problem doesn't even occur.

Another way that won't be to everybody's choice is to use focus follows mouse without autoraise, and use a shortcut to raise windows to the top.

I'm sorry, I'm very tired today so it's probably me, but I don't know what you mean with this.

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 13:00 +0200, jolie S wrote:

When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open below the GIMP windows.

Sounds like you have some combination of full-screen or "miaximised" windows and also the option is set that makes windows come to the front when you click on them.

If you want to get the most out of using multiple images in GIMP in Linux, e.g. to be able to use drag and drop between them, you need (1) "sloppy focus" (focus-sollows-mouse, but focus is not lost when the pointer leaves the mouse window) (2) turn off "auto-raise window on focus or click"

Now, if you have two overlapping windows and you click in the lower one, it won't come to the front, clicking doesn't change the "stacking order" of windows.

You can also assign a keyboard shortcut to "send the current window to the back, or, if the current window isn't on top, bring it to the top" -- I use -f for this (f for front). I'd be happy to talk you through this using GNOME if it helps.

On MS Windows it's quicker to click on the active application in the task bar and minimize or hide it to get back to GIMP.

[...]

Also I've slept on it and given it some more thought and I'd like to ask again if you would please give having multiple images open at the same time some more thought.

I think the idea is that the single window might have multiple tabs, and also maybe multiple panes.

Liam

peter sikking writes:

hey guys,

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

I was really getting excited about getting tabs in the image window (the "image parade" idea would achieve a similar function), since it would make it so much easier to group similar images together when I open them all at once.

But it looks like if I want that, I have to switch modes to "single window mode", and then I give up two important features:

1. The ability to open an unrelated image quickly in another window. For instance, I'm editing 7 photographs from the same trip, and suddenly I need to make a quick change to a 250x50 web icon, placing that window near the browser to see how it will look. It doesn't make sense to open that image in the big window I'm using for the photos.

2. The ability to open a second view on the image I'm editing, zoomed to whatever level I need and placed somewhere that's not on top of the current image. It's fine if second views are view-only "Polaroids"; but if it's always zoomed out and placed partially on top of the current image, it won't serve the function that Views currently serve now.

Is there any chance you might allow those features to coexist with tabs / image parades? It looks like you'll still allow the toolbox and docks to be torn off; please consider allowing separate image windows and views too.

Thanks!

...Akkana

Hi Jolie,

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 01:00:15PM +0200, jolie S wrote:

When I work in GIMP what happens to me quite a lot is that I click just next to a window of an image I'm working on and all my GIMP windows are not shown on my screen anymore because I activated the application I had visibly open below the GIMP windows.

Many good tips have been offered for this problem. Here's my solution: Never put one application window on top of another!

I use virtual desktops ("workspaces") and dedicate a workspace to each application. If I ever need another application to share a workspace with GIMP, for example for drag-n-drop, I bring it into the GIMP workspace, do the d-n-d, and send it back home.

(I also use focus-follows mouse and no-autoraise :) )

HTH.

Tom

Hi Peter,

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 07:26:10PM +0200, peter sikking wrote:

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

Great ideas! I won't be a single-window mode user, mainly because my window manager doesn't suck, but I would use tabs in multiple-window-mode. (With no tabset displayed when there's only one tab in a window, to maintain the current compact display!)

Cheers,

Tom

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:26 PM, peter sikking wrote:

hey guys,

I have now blogged about the single-window mode:

Peter, I'm afraid this is not going to work for a lot of users.

Let's start with a mission statement: a user should be able to a) compare several images and b) have editing access to multiple ones.

To me your proposal fails here, in both tasks. Let's go into details:

Comparison. You solve the comparison task by introducing windows that overlay actual content and duplicate existing views of same images. What needs to be thought about here is that there are two reasons to compare images, and your proposal deals more or less nicely with just one of them:

1. Quick comparison, basic overview of differences between several of images, usually up to four. This is where your proposal sort of works, up to a point where there are too many polaroids around overlaying your current image. Think about poor netbook users with 1024x600px displays. Two polaroids is best what they can allow.

2. Detailed comparison, when you lock view of several similar images and thus get synced navigation. Your proposal sort of deals with this, but what it basically does is creating temporary view windows on top of just one current image. What is wrong with that? The fact that detailed comparison is often coupled with introducing gradual changes to several images. So this is time for the b) part of the mission statement: Editing access to multiple images.

Why is it important to have access to several images at once? Consider a situation when you have two versions of a project you've been working on, that is -- two image windows/views. And you need to add elements from a couple of other projects to both of them. It looks like this:

1. You have a source file(s) window(s) and two target projects. 2. You pick, say, a group of layers from it and transfer (let's omit details for now) it to a different image. 3. You do the same for the second target project. 4. In both target project you aply a number of changes (like reordering objects in layer stack, moving dropped objects around, applying some filters, etc.)
5. You overview changes in both target project and decide whether you need something else from the source project(s). 6. If you do, you repeat steps 2-5.

What is the fastest way to drag'n'drop stuff (paths, layers, selections etc.) from one window to another? By having image windows side by side. Why is the presumably optional (C)SDI not right for the task?

1. Because you don't always need that, so switching between (C)SDI and MDI modes is tedious.
2. Because you don't always need that for *all* opened images, so when you have five images opened and you need to see just two or three of them at the same time, by switching to (C)SDI you end up with several more images floating around that you don't really need right now. 3. Because in the upcoming new GUI using (C)SDI based UI means having varios dialogs floating around, so you will have to manually resize image windows to see both of them, which is, again, tedious.

You could say "Hey, then let's just drag'n'drop stuff to polaroids!". But then you will still not have the editing functions available. So why introducing polaroids that overlay actual content and do not allow to edit content they display? If not polaroids, then what could be done instead?

Custom tiling of images. The space inside working area should become a container that can have both groups of tabs and tiles. You can drag an inactive image using by its tab caption to either of the side of the currently visible image, and they two will share tiled part of the container. Then you can add another one. Each tile would have a sort of draggable caption to help you distinguish one tile from another, so if you don't need that image window anymore you just pick it and drag back to the group of tabs, and the container would refit the rest of the tiles.

Why is it better than the proposed solution?

1. Solves the need to view as many images as you need without adding overlay clutter.
2. Solves the need to have a fast editing access to multiple images. 3. It's flexible - it's up to users how exactly they organize images in their working environment.

There is a number of things to be thought here like exact method of focusing between tiles (sloppy focus won't work, I guess), especially re. drag'n'drop, but pretty please think about tiling.

For developers: CurlyAnkles gtk+ lib has tab/tile widgets I'm talking about: URL.

Not that I'm suggesting to reuse it, but at least it demonstrates the kind of flexibility I mean.

However I agree that the proposed polariod widget would help with viewing same image in different zoom.

Now, as for the "filmstrip", it's quite okay, but I'd mention just one thing here. It really would make sense to display basic metadata there, e.g. title of an image. Because when all you see is a (even large) preview of a 14 Mpx multilayered image and a very similar one next to it, you can't alwyas say which one you need exactly. Especially when it wasn't you who created the images and thus naming of files isn't obvious to you. Whereas metadata can have that information for you.

P.S. I do know that it's much easier to be a smartass (like me) than a UI architect (like you) :)

Alexandre

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

For developers: CurlyAnkles gtk+ lib has tab/tile widgets I'm talking about: URL.

Eeek, here is the missing URL:
http://curlyankles.sourceforge.net/widgets_docking.html

Alexandre

On Sun, 2009-09-20 at 23:49 -0400, Tom Rathborne wrote:

(I also use focus-follows mouse and no-autoraise :) )

Interesting to see the focus-follows-mouse and no-autoraise combination mentioned several times. In contrast, I use focus-follows-mouse with autoraise (with 0 delay). It allows me to have a large image window that partly covers 2 palette windows on the sides. Quick access to tools and settings and large image view at the same time :)

Now from my understanding, the reason peter doesn't want single-window with tabs combined with split views is simply that it would make it unclear, which image the palettes and menu refer to. No matter how you would try to deal with that, you always get a huge pile of additional complexity.

Tempting to say: Allow split views via shift/ctrl-selecting tabs, have all commands either affect both, or for those where that doesn't make sense, disable them. Or duplicate the menu per split view. Also have the split appear in the layers, channels and paths palettes. Just thinking aloud :)